April 1, 2026

S6 E13 Deep Brain Reorienting: The Next Frontier with Guest Dr. Joanna Rosen

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Your nervous system doesn't know the call is over. That's the reality for first responders — and the problem most conventional therapy wasn't built to solve. Dr. Joanna Rosen, psychologist and founder of Between Two Ears Trauma Consultancy, goes deeper than the story, deeper than the memory — all the way down to where trauma actually lives. In this installment of our Clinician's Guide Masterclass series, Dr. Rosen breaks down Deep Brain Reorienting — DBR — a cutting-edge modality that's chan...

Your nervous system doesn't know the call is over.

That's the reality for first responders — and the problem most conventional therapy wasn't built to solve. Dr. Joanna Rosen, psychologist and founder of Between Two Ears Trauma Consultancy, goes deeper than the story, deeper than the memory — all the way down to where trauma actually lives.

In this installment of our Clinician's Guide Masterclass series, Dr. Rosen breaks down Deep Brain Reorienting — DBR — a cutting-edge modality that's changing what's possible in trauma treatment, and explains why there's a critical difference between being trauma-informed and being trauma-competent.

For clinicians who want to go further. For first responders who want to understand why they can't just leave it at the door.

Discover why DBR is transforming trauma treatment — watch live Wed 4/1 at 7 pm ET: https://www.youtube.com/c/ResponderResilience

**Resources for Responder Wellness:**

• Book: Helping the Helpers https://a.co/d/dm0VS4Q

• Free App: CRACKYL http://crackyl.respondertv.com

• Fitness: FightCamp (code RR10 for 10% off) https://joinfightcamp.com/shop/

Contact Dr. Joanna Rosen:

Website: http://moveforwardbetter.com/

Website: http://between2ears.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-joanna-rosen-psyd/

Contact Responder Resilience:
Phone: +1 844-344-6655
Email: info@respondertv.com
Our website with past episodes and more: https://www.respondertv.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ResponderResilience
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/responder-resilience-podcast/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/responder.tv/

00:00 - Cold Open On Trauma Treatment Gaps

00:45 - Show Welcome And Support Resources

03:40 - Off-Duty Hypervigilance Explained

09:16 - Quick Tools To Settle The Body

17:18 - Intensive Trauma Therapy And Return To Work

24:12 - Deep Brain Reorienting Explained Simply

38:19 - Why Talk Therapy Misses Trauma Storage

42:59 - DBR Stories And Closing Takeaways

WEBVTT

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So I was like, TBR, like what is that?

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So I started looking into it.

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I've been doing EMDR for a really long time, and I although it's been incredibly wonderful, there's always this gap.

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Like, I can't get to that.

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Your brain is not designed to delineate past from future from present unless it knows that it's over.

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And then on the job, they are exposed to the very triggers that they may have experienced growing up.

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And my most activated patients, who I never would think would be able to settle in the present the way that they can now, I never would have guessed it.

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Welcome to Responder Resilience, along with my co-host, Dr.

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Stacy Raymond.

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I'm David Dashinger.

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This episode, this clinician's guide masterclass, we're going to speak with Dr.

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Joanna Rosen.

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She's a psychologist and the founder of Between Two Years Trauma Consultancy.

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He'll be talking about off-duty, still on alert, when the nervous system can't stand down.

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Dr.

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Rosen will talk about deep brain reorienting and share how critical approaches are changing and what makes first responders' experiences unique and simple, practical steps that can help in everyday life.

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Stay tuned for a conversation about the latest evidence, how repeated stress affects the mind and body, and real strategies that make a difference for those working on the front lines.

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There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's called Crackle.

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Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop.

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Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com.

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We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information.

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We'll be right back to speak with Dr.

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Rosen after this.

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Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer.

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I am a firefighter.

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I am a 911 communications operator.

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Not I do this work, but I am this job.

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Ask a clinician why they work with first responders.

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And they may say, There's no higher calling than helping the helper.

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Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are prioritized, not whisky.

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Where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone.

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Welcome to Responder Resilience.

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We shine a spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality.

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And celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth.

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We understand the culture, honor the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole.

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With your hosts, retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr.

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Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomeli, LCSW EMT.

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We'd like to welcome Dr.

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Joanna Rosen, a licensed clinical psychologist who helps people prevent, manage, and recover from traumatic stress.

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She takes a unique approach, focusing on the nervous system rather than relying on just one method by blending the latest clinical techniques to create therapy plans tailored to each individual.

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Dr.

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Rosen is also the founder of Between Two Years, a trauma consultancy dedicated to making practical, easy-to-use tools and strategies available to professionals, organizations, and anyone affected by trauma.

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Dr.

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Rosen, welcome to Responder Resilience.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Hi, Joanna.

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So I would like to start off by asking you what you mean by off-duty, still on alert when you work with first responders.

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So it the idea of off-duty, still on alert really speaks to so off-duty, um, I really think about as at the higher level part of our brain.

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Like we're doing what we need to do, we're present, we're functioning, we're following directions, and we're like we're doing our job as a community member, as a professional.

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But when we leave our office, although we may go home and you know change into sweatpants or go out for a walk, our nervous system doesn't have that same, oh, okay, now I'm done.

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It's continuing and it doesn't delineate between environments.

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It just continues to receive and build.

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So especially in uh professions like being a first responder, people who work in urgent healthcare, you know, ER departments, ICU, it takes deliberate effort to help their nervous system stand down and settle.

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Otherwise, it continues to be on alert, which causes a lot of long-term ongoing challenges.

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And on a truly practical level, like what do you say to someone, say a police officer who just can't turn off that hypervigilance, who's kind of just on high alert all the time and it's interfering now with his activities of, you know, his his life outside of uh outside of work?

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Like what what are ways that someone can cope with that?

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I mean, I guess there's lots of different ways of how to cope with it.

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I mean, there are so many different approaches to working with somebody.

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The way I would see that is I would say, well, of course.

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Like, of course, your nervous system is having a hard time settling.

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It's doing exactly what it's designed to do, which is to be aware, be vigilant to keep you safe.

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What it doesn't know, again, sort of referencing what I said before, is that right now you're in a space where it doesn't need to do that.

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It just doesn't know that.

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So that's really how I see that acute level of you know, activation, um, dysregulation is really just the setting has shifted and it's a different scene, but like no one's filled in the nervous system.

00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:15.759
So your understanding of the nervous system, how does that uniquely change your view of symptoms that clients come in with?

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What is it about your understanding of the nervous system that you think perhaps like the status quo talking about PTSD isn't really getting or hasn't learned about yet?

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I think that so again, I think that there's the conventional practice.

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Um, and I and I really do think that all therapists, all professionals, we come by ourselves so honestly that we learn, we we practice what we've learned, right?

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So depending on our age, when we're in grad school, our professors are the people teaching us and guiding us, right?

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So if if PTSD wasn't a thing until the it began really being defined in the 80s, right?

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And then you have to then sort of backtrack in time how old were the people who were teaching us and when did they get trained?

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So it's really something I think that I've come across based on a passion of mine.

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And because of that, my the how I view the nervous system maybe a little bit differently is I assume everybody, regardless of their symptoms, is coming in.

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It's like, of course that's what's happening.

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Like, why wouldn't that be happening?

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So I guess I don't see I don't see pathology.

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Right.

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Um I see maybe like a misguided um a misguided presentation, misguided meaning.

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What somebody is doing is what their system is giving them to do to stay solid, to do the best they can.

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But when you peel back the layers, I guess by using the nervous system as my fundamental um guide, you can see where it's hitting the nervous system.

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And that guides my interventions based on the based on what someone's coming to me with.

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I just I guess that's part of the scope of how I see things.

00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:24.319
You're trained to help people heal, but first responders, they carry trauma that's buried under silence, stigma, and stress.

00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:32.639
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00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:39.759
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00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:43.120
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00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:45.600
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00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:57.919
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00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.720
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00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:04.879
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00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:19.679
There's it's hyper-functioning, not functioning.

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Uh what is typical?

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Can you give us an example of, you know, a first responder coming to you, their nervous system is an overdrive, and give us an example of what you would uh encourage them to do to counterbalance the overdrive?

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I wish I had really short answers for everything.

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I guess the first thing that happens when I meet somebody, I actually have a kind of steps, a few steps in process before I dive in with somebody.

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The first is just to sort of get to know what's going on with them.

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I don't do a typical intake.

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My feeling really is that I will learn what I need to learn about somebody if we work together.

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So it's really like what's not working.

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Um, I I really sort of people actually oftentimes sit here.

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I have a rug and then I have some wood floor.

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So say here you are.

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If the rug is our work together and the floor is when we're done, how will you know you're done?

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How will you know that you've gotten out of this what you need?

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And people, it's always astonishes me.

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They're like, I don't know if I've ever been asked that before.

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So I really just give it.

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I don't, I'm not leading.

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I just say you're here because something's not quite right.

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Right.

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What what's not quite right?

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What's going on?

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And then when I listen, it's it's really, I think, how I listen.

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I listen, um, I listen the way I studied literature, actually.

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I'm sort of looking between the lines about what are some of the common threads.

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Right.

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And then I go to those common threads and then we talk about how working with me, how I would approach that.

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Give us an example because we want to keep the you know, the first responders listening engaged, right?

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Because you're talking about the process.

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We want some examples.

00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:11.039
Well, I guess I mean, you know, there's there are so many examples.

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I guess, you know, maybe somebody comes in here.

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I've worked with individuals who have taken leave, let's say, after a really, really difficult, challenging call.

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They'll come in and this is what's going on, and they'll go on and on and on and on.

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And then I can hear um the pressure, right?

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We all hear the pressure in someone's speech when they want to just get their story out.

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So at one point I'll just sort of hit pause.

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And then in the very beginning, I think I introduce that right away just to help them resettle, reground, so to speak, so that they can reconnect with the present.

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Because we can all hear in someone's voice when they're talking about a really stressful event, a stressful call that they've gone through, that it's just like it's just it's it takes on an intensity of its own.

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So then I use strategies that help the nervous system settle, come back to the present, sort of separating the past, the present.

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Maybe it's an intervention that's like two minutes a minute, such as well, um, gosh, like EMDR, DBR, grounding on the floor, like literally just sitting.

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This is one of my favorite things that I've learned about DBR is learning about how when someone's talking, sharing a story, their brain is talking in the way in which information entered their nervous system, right?

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So we've got five senses, we've got our vestibular, we've got our balance, we've got being able to find our space in the world, which is actually huge with first responders, especially in the fire um department, going into dark places, right?

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How they feel around.

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So I really ground them in how each component of what they're saying, where it fits.

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And I'll just say, like, you know, feel your feet on the ground, literally noticing how your thighs are like still braced, probably, right?

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Giving into this thing we call gravity, that we're not moving.

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We don't need to be in this moment of like this in here because we first set the system looking at using the five senses, right?

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Knowing that our well, our way of being is a product of where our nervous system is at, we check in.

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I was like, we have to check in with the amygdala, for example.

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You have to make sure it's okay to feel safe knowing that you are safe.

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So whether it's grounding, whether or not I have all different sensory things, I have a I have baskets of different smells, I have mints.

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A lot of the work that we use, trained in EMDR work.

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Um, I tend to not really use much of um containing skills um or the safe calm place just because that tends to, I just think it jumps to an area that's a little too abstract.

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I sometimes pull out my biofeedback work with heart math, and we they love to look at where their rhythms are and show them data driven and then do the grounding, and they could just see in a really two minutes how quickly um they can reconnect.

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So I do that and then we continue the conversation.

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If I notice it again going, we'll go back to feeling your feet.

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I'll ask them to notice their shoulders, notice your neck, right?

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Notice if you're bracing against something, and what happens if you just bring some ease into it?

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I don't use the word relax because that's like like everyone's like relax, right?

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No, no, just can you bring any more ease into your shoulders right now?

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Right.

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And oftentimes they'll still be connected to the um the uh sensor so they can also continue to see how their system goes down in real time, yeah, in absolute real time, and then that also helps segue into so this is the present, right?

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This is what's happening in the present that happened in the past, but your brain doesn't know it, right?

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Your brain is not designed to delineate past from future from present unless it knows that it's over.

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And although you know, I do a lot of pointing to my head, I'm like, although you know it's over, your your body doesn't.

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Right.

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So really putting it in language that makes sense.

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People oftentimes say, like, I don't know why I'm so angry, or oh, I don't know why I just go home and I like shut down, like yeah, and making sense of it the same way we do medical symptoms, really.

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You know, your shoulders hurting, your shoulders hurting, you don't know what's wrong, but you know something's not quite right.

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Um, and I use that as the segue into this is underlying, it has to be like it's just you're human.

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And I think that that approach really helps settle.

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I don't think like people who work with me will say right away, oh, it's not like that healing, let's, you know, I just that's just not my personality.

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That's the goal is to heal the nervous system, but to do it in a way that our body and brain um are designed to do that.

00:16:40.879 --> 00:17:05.519
So you just touched on uh uh a number of really interesting points, and I've I'll kind of circle back to the one about firefighters and senses, that arguably some of the most stressful things that happen while we're doing that job or while we are masked up in a possibly zero visibility environment, we also your sense of touch is severely diminished because you're wearing gloves and boots and heavy turnout gear.

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Um and so I love the fact that you're you're connecting that in in the in the senses and also the mind-body connection, that it's not just we're treating the mind, but there's a there's a physical aspect to all this.

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How does this work that you do translate to someone who's comes to you suffering and then wants to return to work?

00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:36.160
And how does that play out in terms of being able to use your tools and techniques to make a make a positive change in how they're coping or adjusting to work?

00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:38.480
That's a great question.

00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:42.319
And I actually pulled out some of my statistics just so I would have them with me.

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My approach is a little is designed a little bit differently.

00:17:46.240 --> 00:18:07.119
Um, I did sort of the traditional um standard approach or single sessions over decades, and then I started to get a little antsy myself because I really knew that although, you know, in between these sessions, number one, all these other life events continue to happen to set back.

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So I felt as though it was backwards, forwards, backwards, forwards.

00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.440
And then I guess I sort of was like, you know what, Joanna?

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You're at a place where you went along with the system.

00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.119
Um, and I decided I didn't want to anymore.

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I wanted to really create something that I truly believe that I could create to get people better out of distress sooner rather than later.

00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:34.240
So I create my model of is intensive trauma therapy.

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:43.200
Um I take that approach where I work with people anywhere from like a week to maybe five weeks, four or five weeks.

00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:50.400
And it's really looking at when you know, going back to when someone first comes in, I do a lot of questionnaires.

00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:56.079
I'm looking at what are all these symptom um constellations that are impacting somebody.

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It's not diagnostic.

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It's like we know what trauma is, we know what um long-term trauma exposure is.

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So I have all these different measures that are used in research.

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Like at heart, I'm a I'm an academic person.

00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.079
Um so I pull out the ones that are validated for research.

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I get this picture of them.

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And for example, um, I have some of my numbers right here.

00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:55.359
Um two of the individuals, I work with individuals who um have witnessed like right in front of them um a loved one uh taking his or her life, you know, dying by suicide, um, being the person to discover the individual who has died, survivors of having lost someone from homicide, sexual assault, um, children who have died um in accidents or in otherwise tragic events, first responders discovering walking into the settings that they walk into.

00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.440
So there's a whole lot going on with people, everybody.

00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:10.559
Um in I would say the two of my first responders more recently, um, there's a specific measure that looks at traumatic stress symptoms, the PCL, right?

00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:20.559
So in 10 days, um a drop 79% drop in symptoms on that measure, sub-threshold, not even able to detect.

00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:23.839
Another one, 84% drop.

00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.160
Uh, I think it was like down to four.

00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.160
Each of them were like down to six, down to four in 16 days.

00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:43.920
People who have discovered somebody who either died by suicide or were present at the at the event, um, four days a drop in 71% in these symptoms of dis of distress, three days a drop in 38%.

00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:49.920
So, what that tells me, what that reinforces is if we can get out of distress, right?

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:56.400
That's what the nervous system is, that's the indication that the nervous system is out of whack, right?

00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.000
It's completely dysregulated.

00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:04.559
So I track all different symptoms to make sure that we're resettling the nervous system.

00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:22.559
There's still the aftermath people have to deal with, but there is absolutely no question that symptoms of distress that are interfering with the day-to-day are able to be decreased with the bright approach.

00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.440
Like with the treatment, no question.

00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:31.039
Um that's what I would say to somebody, and that's how people find me also.

00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:33.920
It's like, I I you're not gonna live here, you know.

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.599
I'm I'm sort of like, I want to get you in and out as soon as possible.

00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:39.119
I have a revolving door.

00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:58.880
So if someone comes to me for a pretty serious excuse me, um, a call, some really serious calls that were overwhelming them enough so that whoever the command person is is like like let me like take a little bit of a break on a leave, let's say.

00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:06.400
I had somebody who Was supposed to be out for three months, and after literally two and a half weeks, I was like, You like right?

00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:07.359
They can go back.

00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.319
You can go back, like you can go back.

00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:23.519
There's still more to do, but your brain is now able to look at what's happening in the present and respond in the present, access your skills, and then the rest is like a longer-term approach for sure.

00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.279
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00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:57.839
But their nervous system is settled.

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.920
It can function at its maximum capacity or close to it.

00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:10.400
And now they can deal with the death where, you know, yes, you know, uh going back to work, you know, re-re-entry to work and all of that.

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:11.519
Absolutely.

00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.720
Absolutely.

00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:20.400
Um yeah, I mean, I it's there's for me, there's like no going back to my older way of being.

00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:25.200
And people do because you have a brief period of time, and then there's still going to be things that come up on the job.

00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:25.519
Right.

00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:35.599
So then somebody just swirls back or they'll text me and I'll just like remind them of walk them through something and then say, give it three days, and then message me if you need to come back.

00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:47.519
I do believe that the that we have a brain that has the capacity to heal itself if we sort of put it back up, if we realign it so that it can do that.

00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:48.079
Right.

00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:56.319
And then maybe they won't be traumatized so easily after you know their their nervous system has been um corrected or recentered.

00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:12.079
Um, and then the next bad event that happens, it may not be as um um upsetting, disturbing for them because their brain already is functioning in a in a at a capacity that can deal with trauma.

00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:22.480
Um, Joanna, I just want to I want to segue for the in the essence of time to for you to have your an opportunity to talk about DBR, deep brain reorienting.

00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:24.079
What do you know about that?

00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:29.920
And it seems like trauma work uh it's on the cusp of dealing with trauma.

00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:31.839
Educate us about that.

00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:37.440
So I am uh it it sort of came upon me, right?

00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.559
So um I learned about DBR initially.

00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:51.039
I go to, as I mentioned before, like I'm very much a believer that we have to continue to be present and moving with our field, again, the same way medicine is.

00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:58.640
So I go to research conferences, I look to see really what where is it, where's the field heading, especially with trauma?

00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:07.680
So a couple years ago, I was at a conference up in Boston and heard a woman speak, uh, her name was Ruth Lanius.

00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.200
Um she's a she's uh you know a neuroscientist.

00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:19.759
Um and she kept mentioning this, like how trauma was moving out of Limbic into the brainstem.

00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.160
Yeah.

00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:21.599
And I was like, what?

00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.279
Because that's just not something that has been said before.

00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:25.680
Right.

00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:29.920
So a few other presenters kept mentioning these initials.

00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:32.480
I was like, TBR, like what is that?

00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:34.880
Yeah, so I started looking into it.

00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:55.440
And then um, after watching a couple videos, I bought the book, I went on to you know, an um online um organization that for PESI, um, you know, right and they and then I learned about it, Frank Corgan, who is one of the originators of uh DBR, right?

00:25:55.680 --> 00:26:01.279
And then everything just it was this powerful, oh my goodness.

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:10.240
Um I've an avid deep uh EMDR provider that I've been doing EMDR for a really long time.

00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:17.119
And I, although it's been incredibly, incredibly wonderful, there's always this gap.

00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.200
I'm like, I can't get to that.

00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:23.759
Like, I can't ever get ever maybe a big word.

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:30.960
I kept noticing people are still stuck in that moment of the before, and then everything changed.

00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.720
Like the event itself, once it happens, we've got that.

00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:36.880
We can bring that down so far.

00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.480
But it was the and then everything changed.

00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:45.200
Like I kept like, I don't know, like we're that's okay to stay at a two, right?

00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:46.480
A one or two.

00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:51.920
And then when I heard about DBR, I was like, ah, that's what it's all about.

00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.440
So um, I mean, I like I I signed up for the first level one.

00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:02.480
There's a number of levels, level two, and level three uh came out this morning.

00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.000
Um so I'm I'm super excited.

00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:08.720
I know I'm going to Scotland in May.

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.079
Oh, wow, hey.

00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:10.640
Yeah.

00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.200
So um the developers, uh uh Dr.

00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:14.640
Frank Corgan and then Henry.

00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.880
Is he in is he in Ireland or Scotland?

00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:17.920
Is he in Scotland?

00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:18.640
Yeah, yeah.

00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:19.039
Yes.

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:19.599
Cool.

00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:21.759
So I could talk to my husband about that.

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:23.839
I literally signed up this morning.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.720
I texted my husband, like, we're going to Scotland.

00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:27.920
Going to Scotland.

00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.440
Um, so DBR really is um it's been extraordinary.

00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:43.359
I mean, I I that is I probably like, yeah, not everybody, not not every single person is a DBR candidate candidate yet.

00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:43.759
Yeah.

00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:44.160
Yeah.

00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.880
And that's based on where I am, I imagine, in my training.

00:27:47.039 --> 00:28:00.079
But especially for this population, what I love about it, and this takes me to having listened to some of the previous podcasts, every single first responder is a human being, right?

00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:16.559
So we normalize being human, and then we know, depending on what you're reading, 60 to 70 percent of all humans have experienced at least one traumatic event before the age of 18.

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:17.519
We know that.

00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.200
That's what the data shows.

00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:32.960
So then we also then can sort of extrapolate and say, okay, there's a decent percentage of first responders also who have experienced that, and layers and layers and layers of on-the-job cumulative trauma.

00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.559
So it's not just the event.

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:42.640
When's when a first responder comes to me with a specific event, that's what we need to settle.

00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:43.359
Absolutely.

00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.279
We need to get that reintegrated process so the brain can move it.

00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:55.920
But the vulnerability for another event to um cause challenges is still there.

00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:16.160
Uh, because underneath it all, before they even went into the academy, before they come to the table, a large majority of them simply because you're humans, not because it's a predisposition for the field, they're coming to the table with this underlying risk or vulnerability.

00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:23.200
And then on the job, they are exposed to the very triggers that they may have experienced growing up.

00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.000
So there are too many stories, is what the bottom line is.

00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:27.680
You're not going to get to every story.

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:33.839
And what DBR does, which is unbelievable, it literally can be done.

00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:36.160
It's content irrelevant.

00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:43.440
You don't need to go to a trauma, you don't need to go to a thing that causes distress, right?

00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:47.839
So EMDR allows us to say, you can stay quiet the whole time.

00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:58.079
So we give that privacy um a first responder to us as providers, DB, but they still are listening to, they're still playing it in their own head.

00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.759
But DBR doesn't even go there.

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:06.720
It looks at primarily there, it's it's set up in a sequence.

00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:16.720
There's something called an activating stimulus, which is like the thing that happens where you just like like the focus just shifts.

00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:18.880
I saw a great yeah.

00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.359
But before you orient, right?

00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:27.599
Before you orient, something captures your your brain's attention, but like down here, not here.

00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:29.839
We think we think here, right?

00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:38.079
So this is um absent of um cognitive, cognitive um uh interpretation of it.

00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:39.839
There's it's just stimulus response.

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.799
It's it's meaningless, there's no meaning making whatsoever.

00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:46.319
It's just for some reason something caught your attention, right?

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:51.440
Yeah, and when something catches your attention, then you go into this orienting to it, right?

00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:52.799
We or we're like, what?

00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:57.039
You know, or a dog will hear something and they'll like tilt their head, right?

00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:57.440
Right.

00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:05.279
So that orienting moment is um in DBR language, what's used as the anchor, right?

00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:24.160
So let's say I'm working with someone here um with some pretty profound histories of a sudden attack, but the stimulus that we used was waking up and noticing more snow than was expected.

00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.880
It's the same, oh, like I didn't expect that, for example.

00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.079
That could that's the entrance to the sequence.

00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:37.680
We don't even I know their history already, so I listen for okay.

00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:42.319
I'm listening, as I said earlier, like for the between the lines.

00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:53.039
And then when I hear that, but in an everyday situation, I'll go in there, I'll suggest we go in there for that when someone comes in that day.

00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:53.440
Yeah.

00:31:53.599 --> 00:32:03.519
Um, and then it goes, you basically are stretching out in in a full session, like a standard session, and let's say an hour-long session.

00:32:03.759 --> 00:32:10.640
The entire session is what takes place in our nervous system in a fraction of a fraction of a second.

00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:29.839
And you pull it out and you sit with it so people learn so incredibly quickly how to take note of the shifts that happen internally, and then they can use that information to guide settling, right?

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.559
Which requires them to be physically present.

00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:35.599
So going back to the beginning, sort of weaving in.

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:41.599
It's like, you know, remember how when you first sat down, we just, you know, noticed yourself in the present.

00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.400
So DBR calls that the where self.

00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:57.279
That's uh a Frank Corrigan's um the protocol for that reconnecting in the present, moving the past and future way, but it's geared towards your nervous system based on it, takes gravity.

00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.039
It takes David when you mentioned um going into a dark building.

00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:04.480
You you are using proprioception vestibular, right?

00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:14.160
You have to be able to map out, you have to be able to feel your senses are so critical when you're going into an event.

00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:22.079
Sound, I mean, it's there's like a cacophony of stressors that are coming at your nervous system.

00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:23.680
That's a lot.

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.559
And again, in the moment, there's no story.

00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:28.079
People just react, right?

00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:30.480
You're reacting, you're reacting, you're reacting.

00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:43.039
And then a day in the job, and then you go home, and then you wonder why like someone's living with this cumulative, like noradrenaline surging, norepinephrine surging.

00:33:43.279 --> 00:34:06.559
And typically what happens is, and then this goes back to somebody's potential history, the nervous system will learn that if I keep surging and like there's nothing to do about it, whether or not it's based on childhood deprivation or abuse, whether or not it's based on I've such like I gotta go on to the next call, I can't deal with that right now, or I gotta go home.

00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.280
I have to go to an after-school activity.

00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:11.920
The nervous system will just clamp it down.

00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:14.960
It'll just so that we can function, right?

00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.960
It's like that healthy disconnect.

00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.960
So we go about our day, but underneath, like this didn't go anywhere, right?

00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:27.679
So percolating and and then the door flies open with a trigger.

00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:30.960
So exactly screaming at their wife.

00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:32.000
Exactly.

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:46.239
So it's it's I think what DBR does is it's such an incredible addition to an already really, really rich um sort of set of modalities.

00:34:47.199 --> 00:35:04.960
And my cons not my concern, I I realize that, and again, working with first responders and listening again, you had some pretty incredible recent guests talking about it's not just you have to know uh the world of a first responder.

00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:13.519
Um, she used a term instead of, and I love this, and I don't think I have to coin it, but being trauma competent.

00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:27.440
It's like not being trauma informed, being trauma competent, knowing that you as a provider have the skills that you need to help settle this person, whatever your modality is.

00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:32.800
If you're just informed, I mean, I'm informed about a lot of things, right?

00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.119
I don't practice them because that's not my competency.

00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:45.679
Um, so I think DBR offers an incredible addition in so many ways because sometimes there's too many stories.

00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.119
There might be a really big event that's blocking in the moment.

00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:49.519
Right.

00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:53.280
Great, that can get cleared pretty pretty easily.

00:35:53.840 --> 00:36:01.599
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00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:34.400
So, Johanna, just to validate, you know, what you're talking about, and I think it is moving in this direction because my research uh with police shows that they have um, if in the case of adverse childhood experiences, over two.

00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:41.760
And um, other researchers found uh up to as many as 3.4 in their studies, right?

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:46.320
So um their nervous system is kindled.

00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:51.360
That's the term that a lot of um neuroscientists use.

00:36:51.519 --> 00:37:00.239
So and they might go into the military, that's a small fraction of say police, um, and then they become police officers, right?

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:14.880
So you have three layers you have childhood, because police and actually all first responders typically have more than one ace adverse childhood experience, whereas civilians, the average is one.

00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:34.960
So, you know, these individuals they have a foundation that is is kindled, and and so the possible combat trauma if they enter the military, and then of course the work-related trauma is just gonna stack on top of that, and it does have to be addressed.

00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:43.360
In fact, in my work, I showed a link to as to why police avoid therapy, and it has to do with attachment.

00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:54.159
I'm not gonna get into my research here because the focus is on you, but um, you know, all of us as as uh clinicians and scientists have to go deeper.

00:37:54.239 --> 00:38:02.079
And so you bringing, you know, the um you know, the the deep brain reorienting, that takes it one step deeper.

00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:03.840
Now we're into the brain stem.

00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:07.440
Yeah, I can I'll grab my pet brain over here in a second.

00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:10.000
I mean, it's pretty like Yeah, I get it.

00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.719
People who are, you know, on uh pet brain.

00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:15.920
I've been like on you know what I keep changing it.

00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:17.840
Well, I want to know what it is now.

00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:20.719
You know, I keep going back to Sigmund.

00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:21.760
Sigmund, right?

00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:23.679
But um, it it changes.

00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:24.719
It it just I don't know.

00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:30.400
You know, Sigmund was our first dog that I got out of grad school, and he was a dog, not this, you know.

00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:30.960
I don't know.

00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:36.239
Um, but to me, this is also a massive this like to me also clicks.

00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.119
I'm a like I'm a visual learner and a receptive learner.

00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:41.599
So if someone's like, this is the brain, right?

00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:42.960
I'm like, oh okay.

00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:46.079
And this is talk therapy, right?

00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:54.639
So for those of you listening, the yeah, prefrontal cortex, frontal lobe, top of your brain, like this is where talk therapy lives, right?

00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:58.800
If you can talk about it, it's here, right?

00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:04.960
So the problem is trauma isn't there, right?

00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:05.360