March 25, 2026

S6 E12 Dump The Bucket: Healing Trauma In Police With EMDR with Guest Dr. Stacy Raymond

The player is loading ...

Cops don't break on the job. They break slowly, quietly, in the space between calls — carrying everything they've ever seen, heard, and survived until the bucket finally overflows. Dr. Stacy Raymond knows what's in that bucket. She's sat across from officers who've held it together for decades — on the street, in the squad room, at home — until they couldn't anymore. Her book, Dump the Bucket: Healing Trauma in Police with EMDR, doesn't deal in platitudes. It deals in truth: that the trauma d...

Cops don't break on the job. They break slowly, quietly, in the space between calls — carrying everything they've ever seen, heard, and survived until the bucket finally overflows.

Dr. Stacy Raymond knows what's in that bucket. She's sat across from officers who've held it together for decades — on the street, in the squad room, at home — until they couldn't anymore. Her book, Dump the Bucket: Healing Trauma in Police with EMDR, doesn't deal in platitudes. It deals in truth: that the trauma destroying officers didn't always start on the job. And that EMDR might be the most powerful tool in law enforcement wellness that nobody's talking about.

This is a conversation about what it actually takes to heal — not manage, not cope, not white-knuckle through another shift. Heal. If you wear a badge, treat the ones who do, or love someone who brings the job home every night — this one's for you.

Now available! Helping the Helpers: A Guide to Supporting First Responder Mental Wellness, our new book that equips you to support the mental wellness of those who serve and protect our communities. https://a.co/d/dm0VS4Q

Thanks to our resource partner, CRACKYL. Download the FREE CRACKYL App: http://crackyl.respondertv.com

FightCamp: build strength, boost confidence, and decrease stress through interactive boxing workouts, streamed to your device on demand. Use code RR10 for a 10% discount on FightCamp packages and accessories. Go to https://joinfightcamp.com/shop/

Contact Dr. Stacy Ramond:

Website: https://www.drstacyraymond.com/

Dump the Bucket Book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/0ewEHfTE

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-stacy-raymond-ba2142359/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stacyshrink1414/

Contact Responder Resilience:
Phone: +1 844-344-6655
Email: info@respondertv.com
Our website with past episodes and more: https://www.respondertv.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ResponderResilience
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/responder-resilience-podcast/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/responder.tv/

00:00 - hen Crying Was Not Safe

00:45 - elcome And What We Explore

05:10 - hat Dump The Bucket Means

07:10 - MDR Explained For First Responders

10:40 - hy Retelling Trauma Can Backfire

13:20 - hy She Wrote The Book

16:50 - CEs And Adult Attachment Basics

20:50 - he Findings That Predict Avoidance

26:10 - solation Drinking And Suicide Concern

28:50 - elf Regulation And Use Of Force

32:30 - eeing The Bucket Before It Spills

37:40 - eer Support Versus Clinical Treatment

40:20 - raining More Culturally Fluent Clinicians

42:50 - eal EMDR Sessions Behind The Curtain

49:20 - herapy As Tactical Readiness

51:37 - elease Timeline And Where To Look

53:37 - inal Thoughts And Sign Off

WEBVTT

00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:08.480
I have heard countless times that police have been told as a child, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about.

00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:12.480
So then the message there is it is not safe to go to people.

00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:20.640
And I wanted to look at adverse childhood experiences that police officers may or may not have been exposed to.

00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:21.839
What is EMDR?

00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:24.559
What does the research say about doing EMDR with police?

00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:26.320
So I capture all that in my book.

00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:32.159
There is something underlying why police are so reluctant to go to therapy.

00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:33.920
It's not just stigma.

00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.200
It's just so that they can better understand what makes them tick.

00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:42.159
Because this is going to address it on a level that nobody has really talked to them about before.

00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:50.479
Welcome to Responder Resilience, along with Bonnie Rumoli, LCSW EMT, and Dr.

00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:51.280
Stacy Raymond.

00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:52.640
I'm David Dashinger.

00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:54.640
Today we're going to be joined by Dr.

00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:57.520
Stacy Raymond as a studio guest.

00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:07.200
We're going to be talking about her new book and her groundbreaking research on police officers and the often overlooked barriers they face in addressing their mental health.

00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:17.439
The book is called Dump the Bucket Healing Trauma in Police with EMDR, and it reveals surprising truths about childhood adversity and its impact on the law enforcement culture.

00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:22.000
We're also going to look at can peer support really offer relief that these officers need?

00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:28.319
And what steps can we take to educate supervisors in recognizing and assisting those who are struggling?

00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:34.719
So tune in for a conversation filled with practical insights that could change how we think about mental wellness in policing.

00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:39.439
There's a new app built by Firefighters for Firefighters, and it's called Crackle.

00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:46.239
Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop.

00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:49.760
Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com.

00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:57.200
Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube responder resilience, Facebook Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify.

00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:01.840
Go to our website, respondertv.com, past episodes, and get some information.

00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.200
We'll be right back to speak with Stacy Raymond after this.

00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:11.120
Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer.

00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:12.479
I am a firefighter.

00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:14.000
I am a paralytic.

00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:16.639
I am a 911 communications operator.

00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:20.159
Not I do this work, but I do this job.

00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.280
Ask a clinician why they work with first responders.

00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:27.360
And they may say, There's no fire falling and helping helpers.

00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:39.840
Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are prioritized, not whispered about, where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone.

00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:42.479
Welcome to Responder Resilience.

00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:51.599
We try to spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality and celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth.

00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:59.520
We understand the culture, honor the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole.

00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.280
With your hosts, retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr.

00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:08.000
Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomoli, LCSW EMT.

00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:16.240
So our guest on today's episode is Dr.

00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:17.280
Stacy Raymond.

00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:23.759
She's the co-host of Responder Resilience, and she's also a clinical psychologist and approved EMDR consultant.

00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:26.159
With over 25 years of experience, Dr.

00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:30.080
Raymond specializes in supporting first responders and military veterans.

00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.960
She dedicates half her practice to these communities.

00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.680
As the daughter of a retired police officer and U.S.

00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:42.400
Marine, she has a personal connection to and profound respect for unique challenges faced by these communities.

00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:49.039
She's also a member of the EMDR International Association, MDRIA, and the Fairfield County Trauma Response Team.

00:03:49.199 --> 00:04:00.560
She's an approved clinician for the IAFF, the Fraternal Order of Police, and she has specialized training in critical incident stress management, CISM, and critical incident stress debriefing, CISD.

00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.800
She also co-leads a weekly peer support group for first responders.

00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.639
And as we said before, she's one of our co-hosts here at Responder Resilience.

00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:10.639
Stacy, welcome as a guest.

00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.759
Thank you so much, David and Bonnie, for having me.

00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.439
This is kind of funny to be one that's being interviewed.

00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:18.639
It is.

00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:29.920
I get the unique perspective of feeling like you're my partner, actually, because we spend a lot of time together on the podcast and we run our weekly support group together.

00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:33.439
And I think we've both been on the trauma team for over 12 years together.

00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:40.240
So I have a neat perspective of watching all of this unhold unfold for you, which has been nice.

00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:47.759
I could also say that uh the podcast was born from uh you guys doing that peer support team.

00:04:47.920 --> 00:05:00.879
And um, you know, by going there, I kind of saw you two in action and how you uh relate to first responders and roll with uh dark humor and kind of handle the ups and downs and just had a beautiful chemistry.

00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:05.839
So that's when the idea of you know the light bulb went off like, hey, maybe we should do a podcast all together.

00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:07.040
So here we are today.

00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:09.600
Wow, the synergy never stops.

00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:16.160
So I'm excited actually for our viewers and listeners to hear about Dump the Bucket.

00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:22.160
So talk to us about how you came up with Dump the Bucket and what it stands for.

00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:38.639
Well, it I have to give credit to another one of our team members who, when I was co-presenting with her, um, she would look out uh to the firefighters or the police, whoever we were addressing, and just say, look, guys, you you have to dump the bucket.

00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:55.279
And what that refers to is just the cumulative stress of uh dealing with uh, you know, just the institution, the place that they work, and also, of course, all of the calls that they respond to, and that it accumulates, and at some point you need to deal with the fact that your bucket is full.

00:05:55.519 --> 00:06:00.639
Um, so I also like the fact that it's not touchy-feely, you know.

00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:05.759
I mean, let's face it, we're dealing with a lot of alpha characters, right?

00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.079
That are um, you know, these are tough individuals.

00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:14.800
Though they wouldn't be in uh public safety if uh if they if they weren't tough.

00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:23.439
And so, you know, what I think a lot of first responders shy away from is the is the concept of therapy of being hand-holding.

00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:28.319
Let's talk about your feelings, let's talk about your relationship with your mother.

00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:34.639
And uh the approach, especially with police, that works the best is none of that.

00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.720
Um, when we can get into uh, you know, what the book talks about as far as what approach is best.

00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:47.439
But I just felt like that dump the bucket is just very bold, it's direct, and like I said, it's not touchy-feely.

00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:52.160
Yeah, it's almost like the image of dumping a bucket is just very action-oriented, right?

00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:58.160
It's quick, it's um you kind of like you get it over with um in a short amount of time, it's not like a slow process.

00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:59.759
Um, so I love the image.

00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:13.600
And and so, and Bonnie can jump in and talk about this with me, but the the therapy that we have found to be most effective dealing with trauma, not just with first responders, but with civilians as well, is EMDR.

00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.959
So it's eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing.

00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.439
And it's laser focused, it's not a talk therapy.

00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:33.759
It involves um focus on the body, it's considered a bottom-up um therapy approach as opposed to a top-down approach, which would be more like a like a um cognitive behavioral type therapy.

00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:44.560
And um I feel that it just goes so much deeper in order to unearth and help the person release the trauma from their body.

00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:59.839
And and and, you know, there's a book written called The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Vanderkoek, uh, who and it's considered the Bible of um of trauma and understanding post-traumatic stress.

00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:09.360
So uh, you know, the fact that trauma doesn't really leave your body unless it's addressed at that level, it's hard to do that with just plain talk therapy.

00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:16.639
So EMDR uh incorporates uh dealing with how it's trapped in the body.

00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:24.319
The other thing that we've learned with working with first responders is that they're very results-driven people, right?

00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:32.799
They generally have a mission, whether it's a an MCI, which is a longer mission, or just day-to-day calls, which are shorter.

00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:43.440
We have found that EMDR works so well with this population because they like to get in, identify an issue, have a solution, get it worked out, and go back to their life.

00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:45.919
And that's something that we're able to do with them.

00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:53.919
And now some of them decide to do more long-term work once they see how effective we are at dumping the bucket per se, or working on some of the calls.

00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:00.639
Then sometimes they will decide to revisit childhood traumas that maybe they've suppressed or weren't consciously aware of.

00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:03.440
Um, and we do see that, which is really encouraging.

00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:12.720
But I think by and large, the scientific piece of it and the the understanding between the mind and body is what really has our first responders sold on that process.

00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:18.799
And it is an evidence-based therapy, and there's plenty of research that supports it.

00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:24.080
That said, I also do not want to give the impression that it is the only approach to trauma.

00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:30.000
Um, you know, people can approach trauma and heal from trauma in many other ways.

00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:37.519
You know, there's mindfulness, there's meditation, there's um spiritual counseling that people can seek.

00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.440
Um, talk therapy will help with addressing trauma.

00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.840
Exercise, limiting substance use, getting to better sleep.

00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:54.720
You know, there's so many other variables that have to, excuse me, be taken into account, you know, in order to adequately and holistically address trauma.

00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:56.639
I just wanted to put that out there.

00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:12.000
The chapters of helping the helpers build intentionally, layering cultural understanding, trauma insight, therapeutic strategy, and professional sustainability into a coherent whole.

00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:23.519
Each section is designed to deepen the clinician's ability to show up with skill, respect, and lasting impact in a field where the stakes could not be higher.

00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.320
This is not easy work.

00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:34.559
It will test your skill, your boundaries, and your ability to carry without absorbing.

00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:42.320
But for those who choose it with intention and integrity, it can become the most meaningful work of a clinical career.

00:10:49.840 --> 00:11:10.399
One of the beauties of EMDR is not telling the story over and over again, which some uh other therapies and maybe just in the course of um, you know, what we do as first responders is sometimes we tell that story over and over again, which could would that possibly re-trigger the traumas that were there in the first place?

00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:11.039
Correct.

00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:19.120
And I and that's I think one of the downfalls of um prolonged exposure therapy, where you have homework assignments.

00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:38.559
So not only are you telling the therapist repeatedly what happened in um in all the details, oftentimes uh that is recorded and you're asked to go home and listen to it, you're asked to go home and transcribe it, uh, possibly, or just uh write out what the trauma was.

00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:49.440
And so that's what prolonged exposure is, and it has probably a lot to do with why the dropout rate for uh prolonged exposure is is pretty high.

00:11:49.679 --> 00:12:00.399
And so I cannot see first responders really taking uh kindly to having that level of exposure to the that intensity of detail.

00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:09.519
And so when you you know, EMDR, you you can just have the person focus on the uh the call and have them go to the worst part of the call.

00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:19.200
And in some cases, for uh security reasons, the uh the officer couldn't tell me where the where it happened, what was involved, because it was still under investigation.

00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:27.600
And so I would just say, okay, go to the worst part of that call, get an image of it and tell me when you're there, and then we we follow the protocol from there.

00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:34.639
So they're not giving me details because they can't, number one, and number two, they don't have to.

00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:42.399
It's it's not necessary, and but the brain will still process through that trauma just the same.

00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:55.440
I think it's important, and it's a good point you made, Stacy, that there are other modalities and other things that do help people because we definitely know about TFCBT, brain spotting, the tapping solution.

00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:02.559
Um, there are many other trauma treatment modalities that people seek and find, you know, great relief in.

00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:16.799
So we want to acknowledge those things, but in terms of the work that we have done with first responders, we have found this to be the most specifically helpful method and the one that they digest seemingly the easiest.

00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:17.840
Absolutely.

00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.720
Writing a book is not necessarily an easy thing.

00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:25.440
Um you have a busy practice, you do the through support group, you do the podcast.

00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.360
What prompts do what prompted you to write the book and who's it for?

00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:34.480
Um so there's there's two agendas with the book.

00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:52.000
One is to promote the use of EMDR uh with police, although I would promote it for anyone dealing with trauma, and that would include other branches of uh public safety as well as veterans or civilians that have experienced trauma.

00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:55.759
So, but this book is tailored to to police.

00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:09.440
I would say most of my uh therapy experience uh with first responders is with police, and that probably has a lot to do with the fact that you know my father is a retired police officer and um he's uh he's a Marine.

00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:14.559
So um I feel very comfortable dealing with post-traumatic stress.

00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:25.519
And Bonnie and I air toward PTSI, I mean injury as opposed to PTSD, which is a disorder, which is very unappealing.

00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:28.720
You know, injuries can be uh can be recovered from.

00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:37.360
We both believe, and there's plenty of other uh therapists that believe that you can heal from post-traumatic stress injury.

00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:44.080
Um, whereas if you call it a disorder, it feels like you've got it for life and you're just gonna have to live with it.

00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:49.440
So presenting EMDR, what is it, uh, how does it work?

00:14:49.600 --> 00:15:05.840
And I get into that briefly because it's not a training manual, and I don't want to bore anyone, you know, with the details of the EMDR protocol, but just to familiari, just to familiarize people with what is EMDR, what does the research say about doing EMDR with police?

00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.000
So I capture all that in my book.

00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:24.559
Um, and then the second agenda is the research that I have done and I have uh just completed the data analysis on of 177 police officers in the area, so local to me in Western Connecticut.

00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:55.759
And I pulled from various police departments, and I wanted to look at I think something that a lot of people have never really considered, and that is the uh adverse childhood experiences that police officers may or may not have been exposed to, and how that is tied to their, you know, their level of attachment, the security of attachment that they develop and that they show as an adult.

00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:11.440
So I have and I have, I can talk about my research when we when we get to that point of the interview, but there's been so much focus on improving access to uh mental health in um you know for police.

00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:18.720
And so we need peer support teams, we need to have command staff on board, we need to have more culturally competent therapists.

00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:24.159
All of that is true, but that is, you know, from the outside looking in.

00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:28.799
I wanted to look from inside the individual, what is the foundation made of?

00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:30.960
You know, what went into their childhood?

00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:41.440
Bonnie and I and other uh people, and this is well researched, we know that people that go into public safety tend to have more childhood adversity.

00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.440
So um I wanted to study that further.

00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.639
So that's what my that's what my research delves into.

00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:50.000
Who's the end reader?

00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:52.159
Like who's the intended audience for this book?

00:16:52.720 --> 00:17:12.480
Uh it will be um definitely chiefs, uh peer support team leaders, any therapists, uh chaplains working with with first responders, working with police, police officers themselves, just so that they can better understand what makes them tick.

00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:18.000
Because this is going to address it on a level that nobody has really uh talked to them about before.

00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:29.279
Stacey, just for the listeners and viewers that have probably not heard about the adverse childhood experiences, can you talk a little bit about ACE?

00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:30.640
We call it ACES.

00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:41.440
Um talk a little bit about what that stands for, what some of the scale questions are, and then also how that culminated into such a curiosity for you.

00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:42.480
Yes.

00:17:43.680 --> 00:18:01.680
So uh the ACE scale, adverse childhood experiences questionnaire, uh was first originated by Phillity and his colleagues, uh, and it was administered in 1998 to 17,500 middle class people in California.

00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:16.400
Um and what they wanted to look at was um the relationship between childhood abuse and uh household conflict and mortality from disease.

00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:18.640
They wanted to see if there was a link there.

00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.200
And they, boy, did they find a link.

00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:26.000
Um, and so questions such as, you know, did you experience verbal abuse?

00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.799
Were you insulted, were you put down, uh, were you sworn at?

00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:32.000
That would be verbal abuse.

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:38.079
Physical abuse, you know, to the point where you have cuts, bruises, or or worse?

00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:50.480
You know, we're not talking about corporal punishment like being just spanked or, you know, smacked, but where there's actual uh damage to the skin, that would be considered uh physical abuse.

00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:56.240
Um, other questions would be uh, did your parents divorce or separate?

00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.000
Um, did somebody in the house go to jail?

00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.240
Um, were you sexually abused?

00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:08.000
And these are all questions that you would answer about yourself before the age of 18.

00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:15.519
So these and what we know is that these uh events significantly impact a child.

00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:22.319
And you know, you could say that that forms the foundation of this person going forward.

00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:24.960
It's going to determine their attachment.

00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:37.279
And so I gave another uh questionnaire called the adult attachment survey, and that has 18 questions that talk, ask about, you know, their comfort level getting close to people, essentially.

00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.240
So that's what the 18 items look at.

00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.279
And so, you know, it it loads onto factors.

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.559
Certain items will load onto factors like avoidant attachment.

00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:58.000
If you answer yes to these questions, then you're gonna, it's gonna you're gonna come out as an avoidant individual, meaning that when you have a problem, you're probably not gonna go to another human being.

00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.240
Um, or did you come out as close?

00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.640
You know, there are certain items that load onto close attachment or anxious attachment.

00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:11.599
And then I devised my own variable and I called it mistrust because there were six items that spoke to mistrust.

00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:20.960
And um and then I asked a bunch of demographic questions and questions about comfort around therapists.

00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:23.599
Do you believe that they're a culturally competent therapist?

00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.359
Do you believe that a therapist would like you if you were to sit down with a therapist?

00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.519
Do you think that a therapist would uh care about you and your problems?

00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.200
I asked all these questions.

00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:38.400
I also asked questions like, um, when you get upset, is it hard for you to calm down?

00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.400
Um, in general, do you trust people that you don't know?

00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:56.480
You know, so I had a series of true and false questions, and then I started doing correlation like regression analyses, very complicated statistics, looking at uh overlap and what the trends were.

00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:14.160
So it turns out that uh the higher the ACES score, the more likely that a police officer in my study is going to have avoidant attachment, and the more likely that they are going to uh load onto that factor of mistrust.

00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.839
So they're gonna be highly mistrustful as well as avoidant.

00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.119
And you could say that those two overlap, okay?

00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:35.200
Um and so this really gets now to my hypothesis that um there is something underlying why police are so reluctant to go to therapy.

00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.599
It's not just the stigma, it's not just the police culture.

00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:44.799
Um, yes, they're concerned about command staff or their peers finding out, right?

00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:50.559
Yes, they don't like the idea of what it means to be in therapy, maybe it implies that they are weak.

00:21:50.880 --> 00:22:06.799
But further than that, and kind of invisible to most people, is the fact that police officers with a high Number of ACEs, and we're talking somewhere in the two to three range out of the ten.

00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:08.640
Why is that high?

00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:15.039
Because Philiddy's study showed that the average was one for most people.

00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:21.279
So really, anything much higher than a one is going to be considered higher than average.

00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:31.680
And um there are other researchers other than myself who have also found that police officers score significantly higher than the general public.

00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.759
Boxing has the power to change lives, especially for first responders.

00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:42.799
Fight Camp embraces your journey, whether you're stepping into the ring for the first time, returning after a break, or aiming to elevate your fitness.

00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:50.000
Harness the strength of boxing to release stress, build resilience, and connect with a supportive community one punch at a time.

00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:55.200
Use code RR10 for a 10% discount on Fight Camp packages and accessories.

00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.119
Go to joinfightcamp.com slash shop.

00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:05.359
So, what does this mean?

00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:18.559
This means that there is something inherent in those officers that have high ACEs that they are not going to feel comfortable going to anyone if they have a problem.

00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:24.000
And I'll tell you this even further, because this is what the um the analysis showed.

00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:29.519
There are three items in particular that are toxic, and I'll share that with you now.

00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:42.319
The number one most toxic ace for a police officer that would prevent him or her to go into therapy is the one that involves emotional neglect.

00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.400
And I'll really I'll read it to you.

00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.440
Do you feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were important or special?

00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:55.519
Mark, yes, if your family didn't look out for each other, feel close to each other, or support each other.

00:23:55.759 --> 00:24:04.799
So the officers that endorsed that item, they came out as avoidant, they they they came out as mistrustful.

00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:14.079
They also endorsed items such as um there is you know therapists uh will not like me what if I were to meet a therapist.

00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:18.000
Um they they are not going to be able to help me.

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:24.240
Um they their therapists don't understand what police culture is about.

00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:33.359
So all of the items involving therapists were were answered in the negative for for the police officers that endorsed that item.

00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.200
So that's the most toxic ace.

00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:39.359
The second most toxic ace would be um verbal abuse.

00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:46.720
So um, did a parent or adult in your home ever swear at you, insult you, or put you down?

00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:57.920
And then the third most toxic ace is did a parent or adult in your home ever physically hurt you, resulting in bruises or cuts on your skin?

00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:24.400
And so knowing this, then we can draw the conclusion that if you didn't feel safe going to your parent with a problem, you're a child, maybe somebody bullied you at school, maybe your girlfriend broke up with you or whatever, and you're upset, and you're you're looking for some guidance or some comfort, and that parent is not available to you.

00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:35.440
Um I have heard countless times that uh police have been told as a child, stop crying, or I'll give you something to cry about.

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.720
Or if you're gonna behave that way, you might as well just go to your room.

00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.119
So then the message there is it is not safe to go to people.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.839
And so you'll you'll have to find some other way of solving your problem.

00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.400
And so going to your room, well, that's isolation.

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:57.039
So, what are we concerned about with police officers if they're too isolated?

00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.880
You know, first and foremost, are they traumatized or is their bucket full?

00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:11.839
If it is, now we're very concerned because there is a certain subsection of subset of officers that are gonna isolate and they're gonna self, they're gonna drink.

00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:22.079
And and and they're probably also if things are heating up at home, because you know, they're gonna have interpersonal difficulties because they're not gonna go to their family.

00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:27.119
They learned that you can't rely on family, so I might as well just go back to work.

00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:30.240
Hey, let me take another overtime shift, right?

00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:34.240
Which just gives them more and more exposure to trauma.

00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:39.920
So it's a downward spiral for this subset of officers.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.480
And I'm very concerned about this subset of officers, and I can't prove it.

00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:50.960
My research can't prove this, but I wonder if this is the subset that is suicidal.

00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:52.400
I have to wonder.

00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:57.920
So well, and your research, it absolutely is groundbreaking.

00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:04.319
And for all the reasons that you gave great detail on it, I really appreciate you explaining it in that way, Stacey.

00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:08.960
And I think what's so interesting about all of it is what do these police officers do?

00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:18.720
They get into a profession because of their trauma, and that profession, we know of all the branches, is the most lonely and isolating branch.

00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:35.039
And so for a lot of these people, not only do they have this deeply traumatizing childhood, but now they go on deeply traumatizing calls and they're then in their cruiser alone, very often with no partner in the middle of the night to sit with everything in their head.

00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:39.200
And most of them don't reach out for help or to talk about that.

00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.960
They go back to feel safe.

00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:51.279
It's never been modeled for them that it's okay to go to uh uh um an adult, an authority figure, and say, Hey, I'm I'm having a hard time with this.

00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:54.640
When they tried that, they likely got made fun of.

00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:55.279
Right.

00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.000
Or worse yet, maybe they got smacked.

00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:58.880
Yeah.

00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:04.559
She fulfilled a promise that was made to her husband and donated his organs so others could live.

00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.440
Five lives were saved in the process.

00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.000
He always did what was better for other people instead of himself.

00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.400
I would definitely consider my dad a hero.

00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.039
Getting the word out there, you're saving lives.

00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:22.319
Actually, their help helped my parents to be able to get me a car so I could definitely get to dialysis.

00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.480
I heard about you and I'm gonna help you.

00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.240
They saved my life.

00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.200
Be a forever hero, donate life.

00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:41.839
Stacy, the other question that I had for you was in looking at the population of those 177 officers, were they spread across towns and cities, rural and suburban policing?

00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:42.799
Yes.

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:52.480
Um, so departments as small as 40 to departments as large as um uh 450.

00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.799
That you know, that would be Hartford.

00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:01.839
Um, and so you have to understand in the state of Connecticut, we do not have what would be considered large departments.

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:10.960
You know, departments that you get some like in uh New York City has, you know, tens of thousands of of officers.

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:23.759
Um states like uh California and uh Texas, they have they have uh number of officers sworn in the 2000 range, you know.

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:32.880
So um we we have only small small to medium-sized uh departments in in the state of Connecticut.

00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.400
And so, yes, it was a mix of rural and and city.

00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:37.279
Great.

00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:47.680
I just wanted our listeners to to know that if they're listening and wondering about themselves, that you got a a really good fair sampling across policing in Connecticut.

00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:49.119
For Connecticut at least.

00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.240
And and I I have to imagine there's regional differences too.

00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:53.119
Sure.

00:29:53.519 --> 00:30:08.000
So um one more statistic though that stands out, and this is this is very important that uh officers that that did appear to have avoidant attachment, right?

00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.880
So they scored high on avoidant attachment.

00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:19.519
They tended to endorse the item that said, um, I have trouble calming down w when I get upset.

00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:56.720
So we have to look at the meaning of that with regard to, now we can't make a direct causation, causational explanation here, but when when you look at what we've been concerned about with regard to excessive use of force, it could be that if there wasn't the security established in the home environment and you have insecurely attached officers that emerge from a home environment like that, and they also are telling me that they have trouble calm calming down when they get upset.

00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:07.440
What that says is that they never really learned how to uh self-regulate and and calm themselves down.

00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:25.920
So these officers in particular are probably gonna need some um you know emotion management training, some resiliency training, um, so that if there is a correlation between those officers and excessive use of force, we can mitigate that.

00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:28.400
We don't need to get rid of the officers.

00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:45.519
What we need to do is we need to we need to help them get better and learn how to self-regulate so that if they so they don't snap, you know, and and then do something that looks like excessive use of force.

00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.839
Hey firefighters, let's take a moment to talk about something important.

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:57.519
There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's not just another wellness tracker or generic resource hub, it's called Crackle.

00:31:57.759 --> 00:32:01.279
You've probably seen the magazine, but this is the next evolution.

00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:12.000
The app is about one thing helping firefighters not fail, not just on the job, but in life, in your health, your relationships, your mindset, and your longevity.

00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:20.640
That's why Crackle is designed to meet firefighters exactly where they are, with resources that make sense, are easy to use, and actually respect your time.

00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.000
You can download the app now for free as a legacy member.

00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:29.119
That means you get early access to exclusive content tools and updates as they drop.

00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:40.000
Use the QR code on the screen to download the Crackle app, or you can download it from the App Store or Google Play and stay in the fight, not just at work, but at home and in your own head too.

00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:44.319
Because your best days shouldn't be behind you, they should be ahead of you.

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:52.799
So, Stacy, we have a couple of images we love you to speak to, and they have to do with the concept of dump the bucket and aces and the book.

00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:58.400
So I'll start you with this one and please comment on what this is all about.

00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:10.640
Image I created, and uh I wanted to come up with because somebody asked me, well, because I had shown them what the police bucket might look like, and they said, Well, what would the civilian bucket look like?

00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.359
And so I was like, All right, let me see what I can come up with.

00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:15.839
So, you know, nobody has a perfect life.

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:20.880
So you have an image here, um, but the water is kind of kind of clean, it's not murky.

00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:25.200
Uh, and in that bucket, you have, you know, a bunch of experiences.

00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:44.559
Uh we can assume that the um, you know, the little boy in the red shirt and and the boy in the blue shirt, green shirt, they're all the same boy, and they grow, you know, they grow up to be the graduate, and then the you know, the man who's kind of uh struggling in the right hand of the right hand side of the picture.

00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:49.440
And I put the heart, broken heart there because maybe there's been a loss of a relationship.

00:33:49.680 --> 00:34:01.359
Um, you can see in the middle there's a car accident, which is something a lot of us encounter, you know, these are just not so pleasant things, and some might say traumas that uh all of us civilians experience.

00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:08.079
But it's a mix of uh, you know, being held, being comforted, being scolded, being yelled at.

00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.280
Um, and then, you know, the other boy has a broken leg.

00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:14.639
You know, we all get bumps and bruises, you know, growing up and whatnot.

00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:17.039
So I would say this is a relatively normal bucket.

00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:18.960
Nobody has a perfect life.

00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:19.679
Right.

00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.400
The water is pretty Yeah, it's not murky.

00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.159
It's clear, pretty clear.

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:24.719
Yeah.

00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:25.280
Okay.

00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.119
And then the next one, this is uh first responder bucket.

00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:39.920
This is yeah, first responder bucket, um, and but kind of more heavily police bucket because of, you know, if let's start at the bottom.

00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:48.400
So at the bottom, I wanted, you know, the first things that would go into the bucket that would be uh negative would be any any child adverse childhood experiences.

00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:50.639
So you have the little boy crying.

00:34:51.280 --> 00:35:00.320
Um, I wanted the middle layer to be for those uh for those officers that had military experience.

00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:03.199
It is a small fra it's a fraction.

00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.760
Okay, but um that goes in the bucket.

00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:10.800
If you've been exposed to combat, that's trauma.

00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:21.920
And so what you see is um, you know, the soldier kind of in the lower middle, um, and then you see a police officer with uh, you know, an automatic weapon.

00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:27.440
And then in the middle section, you can see uh an officer behind a vehicle.

00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:39.119
He's staged behind a vehicle, he's got a long gun, and then you can see a um someone who is perhaps rioting or demonstrating, you know, being you know, mouth open.

00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:42.400
I don't know what he has in his hand, but it looks menacing.

00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:47.119
Um, and then behind that, it's hard to see, but there's like a house on fire.

00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:54.719
So um, you know, these are the things that that go into the police bucket.

00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:58.880
Um, so all of the the calls are going to be toward the top of the bucket.

00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.679
And but you know, the this bucket is more murky.

00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:04.719
The water is, as we would say, kind of dirty.

00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:16.320
And uh when it gets to the point of being full, I can tell you this: police officers are never aware themselves that their bucket is full.

00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:19.280
It's usually someone else that is aware of it.

00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:25.119
It could be their family, their spouse, their coworkers are gonna recognize it.

00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:26.719
So it's very important.

00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:36.239
See something, say something, you know, approach that police officer and gently, privately say, Hey, you just don't seem yourself, you know.

00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:42.000
And maybe that will clue the officer in that the bucket is full and they should do something about it.

00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:47.199
Because just pretending that everything is okay, it's not gonna help.

00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:54.239
So and then this uh this image is going to be on the cover of my book.

00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:59.360
You can see that the it's a bucket of dirty water and it's the police officer.

00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:03.599
Um, and he's dumping his bucket, he's doing what needs to be done.

00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:09.599
Because, you know, it's not in that it's not if your bucket is going to fill up.

00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:13.920
And I can say this probably to all first responders, not just police.

00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:16.800
It's when your bucket fills up.

00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.199
What are you going to do about it?

00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:29.519
Um, and if the trauma is so intense to the point where you actually have post-traumatic stress injury, you should seek a therapist.

00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:43.280
You know, um, peer support's gonna be great for any of the, you know, the bucket's getting full, the person has some, you know, moderate exposure to moderate critical incidence.

00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:48.800
You know, peer support is a wonderful option to help deal with that.

00:37:49.119 --> 00:38:03.039
But when someone is is having significant symptoms that can load onto post-traumatic stress injury, they are gonna require professional intervention.

00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:16.159
Um, and we're gonna hope that peer support is equipped to be able to refer to, you know, trauma experienced therapists, therapists that are culturally competent.

00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:18.559
Now that raises another issue.

00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:29.920
Um, I and I'm sure Bonnie has heard of complaints of I've been to a therapist, but they didn't seem to understand my culture.

00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:37.360
They didn't understand the language I was using, they were they were bothered by some of the things that I shared with them.

00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:49.119
And so that's one of the problems, is there just are not enough of us, people like Bonnie and myself, who are culturally competent trauma-informed therapists.

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:56.400
So this might be a good time, David, Bonnie, to talk about what's coming down the pike.

00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:11.440
I think it's great that you're mentioning that because not only are we trying to raise awareness of that here on the podcast, but in the Fairfield County trauma response team that we're all a part of, we are starting to raise awareness in that avenue as well.

00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:23.440
We've been starting to hold trainings for therapists on how to work with this population to help them be culturally competent because we recognize that there aren't enough of us and we want more of us.

00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:31.920
We want it to be relatively simple for a first responder to need help and to be able to find someone who understands them.

00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:35.679
It shouldn't be this current level of difficulty that we're talking about.

00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:44.639
Um, and then I'm gonna segue to David in terms of our next steps as a podcast on how we're gonna address this issue of the shortage of therapists.

00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.159
Yeah, thanks, Bonnie.

00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:58.000
Well, we've had this um, you know, unprecedented opportunity to kind of have an incredible broad overview of all that's out there and all that a clinician might need to know.

00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:14.639
So we began a series called The Clinician's Guide to First Responder Mental Wellness, where we interviewed some incredibly um amazing experts in different parts law enforcement, fire, EMS, 911, and we went even deeper, did a deeper dive.

00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:16.400
So from that, we've created a book.

00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:20.559
It was called Helping the Helpers, The Clinician's Guide to First Responder Mental Wellness.

00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:26.719
It's a distillation of everything we've covered in the podcast that a clinician uh might need to know.

00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:36.480
And obviously, we can't cover absolutely everything, but we've really made it much more of a human um view of first responders rather than a dry textbook.

00:40:36.639 --> 00:41:07.519
And so we have encapsulated stories that people have shared on the podcast so that clinicians and not just clinicians, but peer supporters, agency leaders, families of first responders, chaplains, and anyone who works with first responders in a supportive role like that can read the chapters and learn about moral injury, learn about institutional abandonment, learn about the real challenges that are faced by first responders based on the experts we've had on the show.

00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:19.679
So it's really exciting, and I think um it's a synchronicity, you know, the fact that the podcast, Stacy's book, the trauma team, we're all doing the same work, and to me, it's the next level.

00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:24.320
It's the next level of okay, we recognize the problem, what's causing the problem?

00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:28.079
There are multiple factors, and how do we tackle all of those factors?

00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:33.119
So we've really looked at the stigma, right, at great detail on this podcast.

00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:42.800
I think Stacey's book shines a light specifically on another area that hasn't been looked at in that detail or in in that length.

00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:45.119
Um, so it's really incredible.

00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.280
I think we're all very excited.

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:49.519
Oh, and everything's happening all at once.

00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:50.880
Yeah, quite quite a bit.

00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:53.840
Absolutely.

00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:55.440
It's gonna be a hard one to top.

00:41:55.760 --> 00:42:04.639
Stacey, the the book, um, there's something really unique and I think outstanding about the book, and I don't think there's anything out there quite like it.

00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:17.840
Can you talk about some of the ways that you've approached kind of pulling back the curtain on EMDR therapy and what that looks like and how how it can make it more accessible to those who might have some trepidation about it?

00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:18.400
Right.

00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:22.400
And and because it's such a turn off the sound of EMDR, right?

00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:24.320
It sounds like uh voodoo.

00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:26.320
And I get that all the time.

00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:36.639
People are just like, you know, it does it have to do with uh convuls electric convulsive shock, you know, do I have to take drugs to do this type of therapy?

00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:40.159
Because EMDR may sound like MDMA, I don't know.

00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:44.239
Um, or ECT kind of sounds like EMDR.

00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:46.880
I it's you can understand people's confusion.

00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:52.800
So look, I just wanted to cut to the chase and say, let's be a fly on the wall.

00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.679
You want to see what EMDR therapy is?

00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:01.679
You want to read what a transcript of an EMDR session or several sessions.

00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:05.360
So there's a chapter in the book that offers just that.

00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.719
And so there's a police officer that I worked with.

00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:11.920
I have her full written permission to publish the transcripts.

00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.039
She's very excited to spread the word.

00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:21.280
She wants people to know just as much as I want people to know about how effective EMDR therapy is.

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:28.800
So uh Lieutenant Sam Cabrera from NYPD at the time, she was a sergeant when we did our work.

00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:31.199