S6 E41 Building A Fire Service Wellness Program: Jason Corthell, Asst. Chief

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This was almost archaic back then was to try to figure out how to run a wellness program because there weren't many out there. Folks need to realize there's money out there now. There's a lot more money out there now for programs than there ever has been. Once you get buy-in from the people outside of the program, that's the level of machine. And that takes time. Chief officers, it's not that they don't care. It's that a lot of times they don't have the time and they don't have the knowledge. But with any training, you need standards. And so for each one of these positions that we make, we have standards, we have policies, we have procedures. The cost is mainly in time. It's not a huge financial burden that these chief officers think it is.

David Dachinger 0:46

Welcome to Respond Resilience, along with Dr. Stacy Raymond. I'm David Dashinger. He got trapped under tons of steel and concrete when, in the middle of a fire, a stairwell collapsed under him. He walked out of that alive and then spent years fighting a battle nobody could see. Jason Corthell is a fourth-generation firefighter, Marine, and now an assistant chief who turned his own challenges with PTSD and addiction into a mission, building the kind of mental health programs he needed and didn't have. His new book, Freedom Found, plays it all out, no filter. This is a conversation about what it actually takes to lead people through the wreckage, including your own. This episode is brought to you by Fight Camp, real training on your schedule. Head to joinfightcamp.com/slash RR. And use code RESILIIENTES for 10% off. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV, our LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and our website is respondertv.com. We'll be right back to speak with Chief Courtell right after this.

Voiceover 1:48

Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer. I am a firefighter. I am a firefighter. I am a 911 communications operator, not I do this work, but ask a clinician why they work with first responders. And they may say, There's no higher calling than helping out. Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are priorities, not whispered. Where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone. Welcome to Responder Resilience. We try to spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality. And celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth. We understand the culture, under the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole. With your hosts, Retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomley, LCSW EMT.

David Dachinger 2:57

Our guest today is Jason Courtbell. He's an assistant fire chief with the Cyprus Creek Fire Department, a fourth generation firefighter, U.S. Marine Corps veteran, author, and nationally recognized speaker on first responder mental health and leadership. With more than 20 years in the fire service, Jason has dedicated much of his career to building practical wellness programs, strengthening peer support programs and teams, and helping emergency responders navigate trauma, burnout, and organizational stress. He's the founder and CEO of Ironclad Wellness and serves on the Texas Commission and Fire Protection Health and Wellness Committee. Chief, welcome back to Respond Resilience. David, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

So I'd like to start, Chief, by asking you like what has stepping into the assistant chief role taught you about leading through change?

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Yeah, um it's been uh there's been trials. Um this is still a a new uh a new venture for me. Um the way that it's worked out, it seems like every five years there's a change in in my trajectory and my my position. Um recently stepped into the uh to the assistant chief role. And um it's there's a lot of pressure. Um I was talking to another uh fellow uh fire chief and uh I was speaking to him and I said, Man, the other day, you know, someone came down to the office and asked, you know, asked a question that was it was a good question, and and it had um it had the power to change the trajectory of the organization. And I felt like I needed to go next door to my assistant chief and ask them, kind of, hey, what are your thoughts on this? And and it took a second to realize like I am I am that now. You know, like I I I have to do that now. And um, you know, the approach that I like to take is a is a team approach, and uh, I think that's twofold, right? Is is one um selfishly you lessen your liability a little bit when you get more people involved in the decision-making process and you don't put yourself out there um as much. And and I think that's important as a new assistant chief is to make sure that what you're thinking isn't just based on your own experience, right? And I think that's true for clinicians as well, right? Is we have to learn to look look at things through other people's eyes just because it might not be a big deal to you, it might be a big deal to someone else in a different way. Um, and then also the the other side of that is is you know, owning your decision and being being firm in your decision and not um, you know, not falling victim to uh the persuasion of of other folks that may not have all the information. Those are probably the two biggest challenges that I've faced so far. I've been in this position for I think about four months now. Um, and and uh those are the two biggest things that I can think of that I've really dealt with from this uh this trajectory.

David Dachinger 5:50

Yeah, and I really appreciate we mentioned that you spoke to another uh sort of friend tier um about you know some some questions you have. Um what is it like to transition from being part of the rank and file on the line, doing the calls, working the shifts, and then transitioning into this uh chief level position where now you're no longer part of that group per se. Um and you're maybe you have way less peers who you can turn to when you have a question. What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah, I mean, it was something that I started addressing when my peer circle was still pretty large. Um, I I saw that from the positions that I had been in within the organization. And so I knew that, you know, your social circle and your friend circle uh gets a little smaller. I always tell people though to find um relationships and find um things to do outside hobbies to do outside of the service, right? And um my spouse has done a great job of you know incorporating her friends into the fold. And that's something that's helped me a lot, is um understanding that you know the fire service is a great thing. And and anytime firefighters get together, no matter your rank, you're gonna talk about work. You just are, you can say you're not, but you just are. Um, and and uh, you know, my wife sometimes take it takes exception to that. She's like, oh, we're talking about work again, you know. But um we do get those breaks by having friends outside of the service, and that is important. Um that's an important element, and and that goes along with having hobbies outside of the service too um and making time for those things. And and certainly the the birthday invites, the uh the uh you know, moving parties, the golf, you know, invites, all of those things seem to uh change and and diminish with time. And and I don't say that for folks to feel sorry, but that is a stark reality and we're telling people all the time, like find something else outside of the fire service that keeps you busy, that draws your attention, that you like to do. Um, because eventually when you leave the fire service, that's that's what you're that's where you're gonna be at. You know?

SPEAKER_05 8:07

Yeah, I I think what is at risk when people don't have something outside of whether it's the fire service or the police department, um is that they can't see the forest for the trees, you know, like they they're just totally immersed and that's all that they think about, it's all that they focus on. And so then how do you see something that's an anomaly if there's a problem that's brewing? Like it's very hard to see it unless you have at least one foot anchored outside of, you know, the whole service.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

So Yeah, I mean, it's like it said in the intro, you know, to the to the show. Um, you know, that's who people tend to be, uh, is their job. And the issue here is is is the job does not care about you. You know, and people don't understand that the people in the job might care about you, right? Your peers, your friends, your crew, your chiefs, they they they might care about you, but the job itself is designed to be a machine that moves on after you're gone. And and and it's supposed to, right? It's designed like that, but that's a tough pill for a lot of people to swallow. And I think that's where we see a lot of struggles with the retirees.

David Dachinger 9:14

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SPEAKER_05 9:55

So the fact that it is this uh hopefully well-oiled machine and it really doesn't care about you, then you know, can you give us some picture of what is what does a uh well-functioning wellness approach within the fire service, what does that look like to you? A wellness program. Can you kind of paint that picture for us?

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah, um, we we started uh with a base, uh basically a base setup, if you want to call it that. Um we knew that that we needed three things at the time. We needed a chaplaincy program, we needed peer support, and we needed professional help. And and I we thought at the beginning, and mind you, this is almost 10 years ago. So this is this was almost archaic back then was to try to figure out how to run a wellness program because there weren't many out there. It wasn't like we were, you know, normal firefighters taking a program from someone and then just changing a few things, and now we're building it ourselves. We really built this thing from the top, from the top up, uh top down. And uh, you know, Dr. Liz Fletcher was is my partner. I mean, she's absolutely amazing. She's a former firefighter, uh, she's on our commission board now, but she worked in the trauma and resiliency department for U of H and worked alongside those people at the University of Houston and just has done a ton of research with uh with uh Jeff Gill and and a few other uh folks that that work within the within the mental health realm for for first responders. And so when she came alongside me, that's one thing that we looked at, was like, okay, what do we need? You know, and and we pushed uh, you know, we pushed hard uh with the fire chief at the time, and he's eventually come around to it, which has been absolutely amazing. He's he's like our biggest advocate now. Um but having those three services to start is absolutely important, and each one of those services deserves probably about an hour explanation about how to get them started, right? So I won't get into that, obviously. Um but I think starting at that point and understanding that the cost um is mainly in time, it's not a huge financial burden that these chief officers think it is. Uh empower your people. I've I've you know spoken at hundreds of uh venues across the country and every conference I go to, there's a motivated firefighter, a motivated lieutenant, a motivated captain that is essentially begging their organization to let them do something and start something, and they get shut down. The well-oiled machine is not the peer support group, it's not the clinicians, it's not the chaplain. The well-oiled machine and how a program works and its success is based on the folks outside of the program. It's the people that promote it. Once you get buy-in from the people outside of the program, that's that's the well-oiled machine. And that takes time.

David Dachinger 12:43

Yeah, and um love for you to walk us through the evolution of how the program started and how you did get approval or get buy-in to get it funded and keep it going like you have. And uh, I know you've done a lot of great work around that and sharing resources with uh anybody that might be needing something like policy, say, um, to help get them started. But kind of give us the, you know, give us the trajectory of where where it all began and then how you got to where you are now.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah, so uh I moved to this uh organization I'm at right now, uh full-time in uh 2016. And um I was still going through some things myself at that point in time. I had I had started to right my wrongs and started to transition and figure out what you know what healthy, you know, Jason looked like to me, right? And so in doing so, a lot of uh physical fitness and and kind of the the meathead aspect came into it was we need a fitness program for this organization. And uh Liz, Dr. Fletcher, was part of this organization as well. And she came to me and she's like, Have you thought about a comprehensive program that takes care of physical fitness but also mental health? And I was hesitant at first because it like hit it hit a pinch point for me. It was like, uh, I don't know if I'm gonna venture down that road because I'm not okay. And if I'm not okay, how cool am I to develop a program for someone else who's not okay?

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Uh when in reality, that can be some of the most impactful insight that you get, right? Is you get someone who's in the in the trash.

SPEAKER_05 14:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

And and and and helping uh helping somebody, uh a more studious person than sometimes it's the leg up for you to get out of the trash. 100%. And that's exactly what happened, Dr. Stacey. That's exactly what happened. Is okay, we uh, you know, we we we trudge through it, you know, and and I'm so I'm do you know looking through some research with her. And I'm not a big academia guy, she she is, she's the brains behind the operation. I'm kind of the mom behind the operation. Yeah, but uh we're we're going through some research and looking at some things, and I'm just thinking, like, man, that's me. That's me, that's me. I checked that box, I don't know. And it was important to have her through the process because she normalized everything, you know what I mean? And and I know that's kind of a cliche key term is to normalize, but um, she really did, you know, and she's like, I could certainly understand how you feel that way. I could see how you how you might look at this. And so uh we we started developing a program based on that, and it was like, what do we need, you know? And it was like, well, you know, we're in the south. I think chaplains are pretty much nationwide, but we're in the south, and so the spiritual, you know, religious aspect is is huge down here. So we need a chaplain, you know, and how do we find a chaplain? And and so we started looking at people, we started asking questions, just asking around. And that's the big thing is people like, well, how do we get a chaplain? How do we find a chaplain? It's like talk to your people, talk to you, put a poll out, put an anonymous pollout, you know, and we didn't want to just hand somebody a uh uh you know a rank and a radio and say, hey, you're the chaplain. We we worked hard to find that and find competent training in the area. We use uh Federation of Fire Chaplains, they're a great resource for us. Um they're based out of Dallas, Texas, which is you know three-hour drive, but they do a bunch of trainings in the area and they do a basic certification class for chaplains. And so we went that route. And uh, you know, we right now we have six chaplains uh within our department and folks that have taken the training that are deployable, that want to help. And that was cool, right? But with any training, you need standards. And so for each one of these positions that we made peer support, professional counseling, and chaplaincy, we have standards, we have policies, we have procedures, we have memorandums of agreement and understanding. Because if you're training, you know, if you're training, you have to train to standards. If you're not training to standards, you're not really even training, right? And uh, and so we did that, and then we copied that basically for the peer support process. The peer support process was was pretty cool. We came up with a short quiz, kind of interviewed our people, which was important, but we wanted to basically reflect our department on a smaller scale for our peer support group. So it's like, yeah, we need males, we need females, we need different races, we need different religions, we need different people who are in different walks of life, you know, and so we made sure that our our peer support group kind of mirrored our organization at a smaller scale, that that was important too, and that that it wasn't picked.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Um, you know, and that that was cool because it's a peer support group. So if there's one group in your organization that should be picked by the peers, uh it's your peer support group.

SPEAKER_05 17:14

Correct, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, and so we went to that, and then obviously the the counseling side of things came on board. Um, I had we we had a a crisis at the station before our program even took off. And I started looking up counseling agencies in the area, and uh I found one that was right down the street. And I'm telling you right now, by the grace of God, this organization that was right down the street was like, Yes, we will do this, and we will help coach responders and we will figure out what this program looks like. And so almost 10 years in the making, we've we've lived together hand in hand. Uh, they're a great organization. And I tell people all the time, you know, I I I spoke in uh a small parish in Louisiana, you know, and they don't have the same resources as I do here in Houston. And um, I said, man, there's there's virtual stuff, there's all kinds of stuff, people that can help help you out. And I said, Do you know that you have nine, nine counselors within this area within 30 minutes of you that say that they can assist with first responder and veteran uh issues, you know. Now, now whether they can or not, that's a whole different ballgame, right? Like know who you're engaging with, but you at least have those nine resources to check out. And they didn't know one of them, you know, and so it's bringing that to light, bringing that to you. That's how the program started coming to light and how we looked at each different aspect. And now there's more, right? Like we've we've built more into the program, but those three resources were absolutely takable to get started.

Voiceover 18:44

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David Dachinger 19:34

Speak to this hypothetical question. You know, if you were a chief came up to you at a conference and said, Um, Jason, I love the program you've created. We, you know, we we're thinking about something, but we just have no idea how we could possibly justify the cost of it, all the startup, you know, whatever it takes to get this going. How do you answer that question?

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yeah, um, so one one of the things that uh folks need to realize is there's money out there now. There's a lot more money out there now for programs than there ever has been. Um and and what I what I find is this is chief officers, it's not that they don't they don't care. It's that a lot of times they don't have the time and they don't have the knowledge, right? And and so then they get this this moniker over their head that says, oh, you know, chief doesn't care about us, he's not letting us do our mental health program. A lot of times they don't have the right information. And so it takes that individual to almost come up with a sales pitch and say, hey, look, this is what it'll cost. What does peer support cost? What does peer support cost our department? It costs our department one night a year where we take our peer support members and their spouses out or their partners, we take them out and we do something fun, and that might be a couple grand. That's what it costs for a peer support team. You don't even have to do that, right? Like peer support for us for us is volunteer, voluntary, right? And it's been great, and that's how we've ran it. So that's free. That's that's not not costing anything. A lot of the chaplaincy stuff, the uh the Federation of Fire Chaplains course itself, if I can name drop again, is $250. That's it. And it's a two-day course, and they don't certify you necessarily as a chaplain, but you have the basic knowledge to be able to go back to your department and say, hey, okay, I'm ready to run with this. So those are the two things. The third thing is this is um I I think it's very important for uh chiefs to understand the difference between psychologists, counselors, and psychiatrists. I I and if they're ignorant in that area, then that's on them, right? If they're coming up to me and they know that that those three different things exist, but they don't know the difference and they want to run a program, I I highly encourage them to check out the difference. On top of that, insurance and self-pay, right? There's two kind of different worlds and there's different thoughts on different things, and and I get it. You know, I I get the self pay side, it's a lot cleaner, it's a lot less hoops that you have to jump jump through, right? A lot less permissions you have to get from you know the the insurance company. companies, but then on the insurance side, it can save the department money. And so what I always tell them is do your research, see what your copay is for counseling appointments, because it might be zero. You might not have to pay for counseling appointments. And I said, if I said, if anything, I said maybe it's $100 per hour for an appointment and insurance covers $70 of that. And maybe the department picks up the $30 instead of instead of that. And so that comes out of your people's pocket. And it looks it looks free, but really the insurance is covered the majority of it. There's so many options there, David. I I appreciate that question very much because I get I do get asked that uh I do get asked that quite a bit. But it's not this you know $50,000 a year program that people people think it is.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Right. Right. So Chief, I wanted to get into a little bit of your struggles and um but leading into a question of you know why is it important for leaders to be open about their own struggles. Sure. Why that's important to a department.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Sure. Yeah um you know uh transparency and and you know being able to be relational with others um from a leader standpoint I mean it it it sounds very basic like the basic answer I'm going to give is like okay I messed up or I'm currently messed up but there's hope in all of this because this individual was able to still be successful in what you know he does and promote and and and move through an organization and how did he do that? Like what what happened? And I always say that the linchpin in my story and it's in my book too is um the second that I took ownership of everything and part of it was getting caught but also part of it was exposing more than needed to be exposed on my part, right? So like I got caught but also I took ownership of more than what I got caught for. And and that's that's that was the big part because as soon as I did that as soon as I came out and I talked to my leaders and I talked to my partner and I talked to my family and I said these are the issues that I have this is what I'm going through these are my goals this is what I want and I don't want the how are you doing today I want you to be specific when you address me with those goals. I want you to you know hey did you you know when's the last time you went to a an SA meeting when's the last time you went to an AA meeting when's the last time you know you did this how's your sobriety going? Ask those hard questions. And so so putting that out there as a leader saying look like as a leader I was struggling through these things as a company officer I'm starting um that's important. I I I'm big on ownership man I could I could listen to Jocko talk about ownership and accountability every day of the week because I I just I believe in that's that's a huge hurdle that not many people can get over uh is ownership.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

Can you you know sort of explain to us how did you get to the point of owning it? Like how did you know I need to own this or this isn't going to change. I'm I'm just gonna keep sinking.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Honestly I was tired. I was tired. I was exhausted from running and then I started you know in doing my own research I started looking at um you know what I went through as a as a child and um there were times when I wanted to run away from things and I couldn't because I was trapped in my own house. You know I was trapped in my own room and I was exposed to to things that I shouldn't have been exposed to. And um but if I could run I would run and I would run from election shits I would run I would run from anything. If if something was hard I would dodge it I'd run from it. I wanted e I wanted things to be easy. And so it got to a point where I was literally tired from emotionally running from everything. And I looked back and and I I was like I can't continue on like this.

David Dachinger 25:53

If I continue on like this um I I'm gonna fall out you know and that's okay that looks like yeah and uh the book is called Freedom Found what um what's the main message you want readers to take away where maybe there's a couple of messages yeah it's just a it's it's a it's a raw read.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

I mean I'm hoping that that somebody you know picks it up and and I've gotten you know some good comments from some folks who have read through it so far and and I've gotten people say that I've made them cry and that's obviously not my intent, but I love the fact that it touches people's heart uh in that way. Um I I think my overall message is just to bring a sense of awareness to people outside of the first responder realm uh to let them know you know what what we go through and what we're exposed to and why uh why the issues that we have are important uh to address. I I still like to this day my favorite people to speak to are not first responders, right? Because most of them know that we're messed up and we have issues, right? And I say we as a collective not them. And so when I can talk to um when I can talk to you know clinicians and I can talk to um people that are outside of the service and make those connections and I get to speak to them that's the premise of the book was what can I put in this you know 100 I think it's 110 pages or something like that. What can I put in this 110 page book that will make people go, oh dang, I never knew that or I never thought or I didn't see it that way. Right. Because a lot of the book for first responders if they're reading it is affirmation. It's it's it's normalizing things, it's affirmation.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

But to the general public um it's it's a game changer I think it's an eye opener. Um and that's what I want people to know.

SPEAKER_05 27:42

It's it's not only uh validating them but it's also giving them permission to be vulnerable which I think a lot of um people in the fire service police um EMS you know which is you know a lot of alpha males not not to exclude the women but who are alpha females and you know just as walled up if you will um to to not dip a toe into that pool of vulnerability it's like it's like the plague. Yes you know you can't really go there but you with in your book you go there.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah um and if I can speak to that about uh what you said about female first responders I I goofed up when I was speaking one time uh pretty pretty bad I didn't know it at the time uh I was I was speaking uh in in ocean city maryland and um I had somebody come up to me during my break and it was a female uh law enforcement officer and she said hey uh I I'm not complaining or anything and I think you know what you're doing is great but you said something about um being vulnerable for first responders and said that generally men are more closed off than women and one thing that you have to take into account is women first responders tend to be more closed off than men first responders because they can't show any more weakness than what's already been painted on them.

SPEAKER_05 29:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

And I'm like oh my gosh that just hit me. And so now I I literally pledge to her uh as I spoke to her like I'm going to share this with as I can. That's why I I put it in I I put it in my slides now, you know and I think that every chance I get and so for you to say that yes uh 100% spot on the all units stand by for confirmed structure fire important in a world where first responders save lives this book could help save theirs by preparing you to answer when they call for help.

Voiceover 29:49

Based on over 200 conversations and the trusted team behind the Responder Resilience podcast, helping the helpers gives you the tools to understand their world, speak their language and earn their trust. This work is challenging but deeply needed and profoundly rewarding. Their stories don't start with trauma, but too often they end there. Infused with real life experiences, this guide reveals the human behind the badge and equips you to build a first responder centered practice that works from understanding their culture to the practical realities of working with first responders and chapters across the spectrum of first responder professions you'll gain insight into the hidden struggles that shape their reality and the steps you can take to help them heal. When trust is shattered the stakes are high. This book helps you build it before it's too late. Are you ready to make a difference?

SPEAKER_05 30:42

Be the resource they can count on order your copy of Helping the Helpers the clinician's guide to first responder mental wellness today this is getting a little personal but um you know what was the hardest part for you to write and in doing so it probably uh suggests that that was also one of the most healing pieces for you to write and is that true? So what's the hardest what was the hardest part for you to write and and was it healing for you to put that in there?

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah uh I would say probably two parts two parts got me uh to the point where I had to stop and come back a couple times uh to it and and those saying two parts were the chapters that I was worried about um my family reading uh and do that and so there was a lot of uh what do you want to call it a lot of forewarning uh when I was writing the book and saying hey I'm gonna put this out there like are you good with that and then I took a lot of stuff out of the book too that that wasn't life it wasn't life giving um it wasn't it wasn't they didn't add value to the book that wasn't life giving sure so um the the first one was obviously my past and my childhood and and I wanted to make sure that I painted my mom in a light that wasn't um completely negative. I I did have a good childhood because my mom was was a real real fighter uh just uh a tenacious woman that fell victim to some addiction um and she has since you know gotten herself off the street she has since became clean and sober and she has a good job and she's thriving she's doing great and she's been been that way for years and so painting that picture and and essentially um bringing her back to that place through text was was rough because I know how far she's come now and so that was that was hard and and some of the things I went through as a child um you know which she's already known and we've talked about the second part uh was writing about my my wife and writing that chapter about my wife um because of what's you know current struggles with with her health and um writing about what I put her through all over again. And and you know the the challenges of infidelity and um the uh the inability to connect with her in the in appropriate ways uh when we first started dating um that was very tough to write because now I look at us and I'm like you were an idiot what do you think you're doing you know and um and and so those two chapters probably stuck out to me the most about because the th those are the people that are close to my heart and those are the people that are going to be here after the fire service.

SPEAKER_05 33:35

Sure.

David Dachinger 33:35

Right absolutely and uh well thank you so much for sharing that and going deep with it um absolutely and doing a service to someone out there who needs to to hear that. Thank you and um speaking of which where can people find the book before we shift gears to another topic? Where where is it at?

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah the book is on Amazon. Um I I released it on May 19th which is my birthday this year. So my 41st birthday present was releasing a book and having instant anxiety uh over over pressing the submit button uh but it's been it's been awesome and it's so surreal and awkward when you know people ask you to sign a book. I don't know if you guys experienced that or not yet yeah I'm like I'm about to deface this book and devalue this thing. Let's just keep it clean. But no um the book's been great um sales have been really awesome and unexpected and and I I love it and and the premise of the book if I can speed to that real quick David sure is uh you know I sometimes I would get booked for a 45 minute speaking session or an hour speaking session and um I would jam everything I can into that you know I was like 15 pounds of crap in a in a five pound sack and my wife would be like hey like you need to have bigger bigger spots to speak in and I'm like but you know I'm I'm taking what I can get right now you know I'm not a not a four hour keynote guy and uh so she uh she said why don't you why don't you write a book or something and and that way you know if you do have these short you know speaking opportunities and people want to you know people want to hear the rest of your story you can give them the book. I was like yeah that sounds amazing and so it wasn't like write a book because you're a speaker and it's the next thing that you're supposed to do write a book because you're gonna get rich by the way for those of you who write a book you don't get it off any book. And so so those those uh two things really with the the the passion behind the book it's it's that people get a full you know full story instead of a hot shot.

David Dachinger 35:43

Yes. Yeah and what you're speaking to is uh it's kind of one of the undiscovered parts of writing a book. It can be the gateway to other things. In our case it is um in the gateway to creating a clinician awareness training for First Responder Center for Excellence based on the book and um presentations. I just did a presentation for FRCE about the book and somehow they kind of kind of feed off each other if you will. The pod book was based on the podcast now the podcast can start to expand on things we talked about in the book but didn't cover as fully as they could have or there's new information out there now. So I think what's important for anybody that's considering a book or any of these things, podcast whatever, think beyond that project and how it can all kind of feed off itself and kind of circle back and just become greater than that one project by itself. So um great points and I know that um it has to be um supercharging your your speaking presentations as well to have all this uh great material. It's amazing it's been heising absolutely so I wanted to just almost circle back to where we started talking about embedded programs and what you're doing with iron ironclad because you went from three departments to nine um you've got more clinicians and so you've scaled right tell us a little bit about what you've learned about scaling um where it's you know it's manageable and and it's a win-win.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah uh growth is is is terrifying um because you still want to deliver you know the the quality uh of the people in the program and we are you know it's a balance of being so selective with the people that you align yourself with and the organizations that you um you know contract with and recommend and and then the clinicians that you know come on board and they they come on board because they have a passion for this you know and every single one of our clinicians um has served in some way or they're during serving and so right now we have four clinicians we have three LMFTs and we have one LPC um three of the uh three of the four are first responder one's a veteran a combat veteran and um and so we can address those issues too because a lot of our services police fire and EMS are full of veterans and some of those folks are dealing with veteran problems and not first responder problems right uh looking with stuff from deployment and all that so uh we wanted to we wanted to make that happen and and what's been funny is it's kind of like the field of dreams you know if you build it they will come yes that has happened and so I think these clinicians are like and you know what what is going on with Ironclad right now is intriguing because I like that population. I serve that population because as you both know we are some of the most interesting animals to off earth right and so we will we will keep you busy we will give you new things every day that you've never seen before or heard uh all that good stuff right and so clinicians are kind of drawn to to to that you know and and so uh we don't recruit we don't you know put anything out that says hey you need to come you know be a clinician and and work with Ironclad.

David Dachinger 39:03

Um myself I'm going through school right now to be a clinician so hopefully uh in 27 I'm going through an MFT program right now with a local uh local college um and that that's really what drive drove me to do it was seeing these four people interact and work the way that they've worked with different organizations has been absolutely amazing and so yeah Aaron Claude comes in and I like to say it's like a lunchable you know we hand a lunchable to the organization they open it up there's different compartments there's things that they can uh you know work in and address and we're right there alongside of them beautiful it's awesome you know that's gonna become another book David or or uh another podcast for us is gonna be um former first responders that become clinicians there's a lot there's a lot there is a lot I think that would make a great episode yeah yeah absolutely and um and also to to your point jason we um we did an episode a while back about veterans who are now first responders and there was Stacy was the uh focus and and subject matter expert on the audio downloads that is one of our top podcasts maybe the top podcast there's something about that subject actually drew a lot of interest so we're gonna do a follow-up on that but just to say that it's not talked about very much but there's obviously um a lot of interest in it.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

Yeah absolutely and just just for throw a little statistic out there, you know I because I looked into this um I don't know what it is for fire but I bet it's pretty similar. Five percent of you know active sworn police officers are veterans but so it's not really as high a number as you would think but it really depends on the location of the department. If they're near s like a a base, an army base, you know, um or you know marine installment or whatever, you know, then then you're gonna have a much higher percentage and a much greater interest. But I just thought I'd throw that out there.

David Dachinger 41:01

Yeah well I appreciate that yeah absolutely and then you have you know an interesting um situation where you have um military bases that have fire departments and probably you know security departments, right?

SPEAKER_05 41:12

People that are doing that duty and right military police, right?

David Dachinger 41:15

Yeah yeah yeah and um you know there's definitely uh fire suppression on different uh air bases uh that's an important thing so that's another little niche to it where we'll have to look at down lately.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Well Chief anything that we didn't touch on that you'd like to talk to you um no uh I I again I appreciate what you guys do I I admire from afar most of the time and and um you know I I love the the work that you guys do the emails that you guys send out um I read them I send them out to our people uh so hopefully it's hopefully that's making a difference and and hopefully you guys are getting out there and sounds like there's new projects and you guys are getting a little bit larger of a of a span and I think it's well deserving for sure.

SPEAKER_05 42:01

Well thank you and um you are always my uh my hero for being one of the groundbreaking forerunners in this uh mental health space for first responders so uh you inspire me every time I talk to you that means a lot man thank you so much and I I can't say enough about you know how uh important it is for a leader to be vulnerable and to you know to say look this is what I struggled with this is you know I when I was at my rock bottom this is what it was like this is what I did to get my pull myself up from you know my bootstraps and and pull myself out of it and now here I am on the other side and this is what I've learned.

David Dachinger 42:37

Like we need more of that basically thank you doctor I appreciate that all right continued success I hope to see you out there in the speaking circuit all right thanks brother all right remember to like and subscribe YouTube respond resilience we're on Facebook Responder TV LinkedIn we're on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and our website is respondertv.com until the next time stay safe be kind to yourself take care of the