S6 E43 Building Resilient First Responder Leadership: Rodger Ruge, Pathfinder Resilience

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I recognized I was in trouble. I had been drifting for a while, but the interesting thing about drift is I masked it. I work with leaders who are willing to explore and take action on their limitless potential. So we've got to lead by example, and leadership happens at every level of the organization. If we tried to do the cookie cutter approach, we know that that won't work because each culture is so different. This is not something to be spent and wasted, which is what I witnessed in all my brothers and sisters, the vast majority, when they get to the end of that career, holy moly, are they used up.

Voiceover 0:45

Welcome to Responder Resilience, along with my co-host Bonnie Rumoli, LCSW, EMT, I'm David Dashinger. Nobody burns out in just one call. It happens one skip meal, one sleepless night, one I'm fine at a time. Roger Ruby spent decades in law enforcement before he faced a battle. No tactical training could prepare him for complex BTSD. Today he makes the case that in an era of forced holdovers and minimum staffing, the body carrying the badge is a piece of equipment that nobody's checking. We need to treat it like a temple because every split-second decision runs through it. We also hope to get into a couple of topics like the culture in the Ivory Tower of leadership and what would happen if we all actually joined forces together and pitched in together to make a difference. This episode is brought to you by Fight Camp, real training on your schedule. Head to jointfightcamp.com/slash RR and use code RESILIENTES for 10% off. There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's called Crackle. Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop. Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube responder resilience or on Facebook Responder TV, or on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and our website is respondertv.com. We'll be right back to speak with Roger after this. Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer. I am a firefighter. I am a paraledic. I am a 911 communications operator, not I do this work, but I do this job. Ask a clinician why they work with first responders.

Bonnie Rumilly 2:31

And they may say, There's no higher falling than helping helpers.

Voiceover 2:36

Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are priority, not whispering. Where support is a type of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone. Welcome to Responder Resilience. We shine a spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality. And celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth. We understand the culture, honor the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole. With your hosts, retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Roomeli, LCSW EMT. Welcome back, Roger. After two decades in high-intensity law enforcement units, including SWAT, street crimes, and motors, Roger faced the kind of internal battle no tactical training could prepare him for complex PTSD. This is really amazing. Among the first in the U.S. to undergo EMDR, he chose a different path forward, one of healing, truth testing, and peak potential. From living with monks to training under indigenous shamans and martial arts masters, Roger spent the last 30 years separating fluff from function in the world of wellness. Today, Roger serves as the Chief Resilience Officer at Pathfinder Resilience and as a trusted guide to executive leaders who are ready to build bulletproof resilience while creating extraordinary high-performance cultures. Roger, welcome back to Responder Resilience.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

It is truly a joy to be back. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Bonnie Rumilly 4:19

Welcome back, our friend. It's been a minute.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

It has indeed, Bonnie. It's a joy to see both of you. And, you know, the work that you're doing out there in building awareness around these things, giving people some really thought-provoking content. That's how we're going to keep this ball moving forward, definitely.

Bonnie Rumilly 4:36

Thank you so much. And we couldn't do it without people like you. I had forgotten that wonderful fact that you really were one of the first to do EMDR. And I think that's pretty amazing. Um, just knowing where we are in the EMDR world now. So I commend you for having the courage to do that back then. It must not have been easy for you.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

You know, uh the backstory on that is actually interesting. So I recognized I was in trouble. I had been drifting for a while, but the interesting thing about drift is I masked it. And that worked until it didn't. And then I had a break. But the signs and symptoms were there. And so I went to talk therapy because I knew I was in trouble. And my therapist said, Hey, listen, this is a pretty severe case. That wasn't a badge I wanted to earn that day. And they said, uh, I think we need to do something different to help you move through this. So they said, There's a new therapy. We don't know how it works or why it works. Want to try it? Well, when I realized that I actually was expressing suicidal ideation and I had a family and two beautiful daughters, I wanted to be there for them. So I said, let's try it. And just so happened, one of the six practitioners in the country at that time happened to be in my city. And so I got to experience it. Now, there's two things about this I'd like your listeners to know because I think this is really germane to where we're going today. The first was I went for one event, six more came out of me in that EMDR process. I didn't know that I was still holding on to them. I hadn't thought about those critical incidents in years. And yet I literally, once that floodgate opened, I couldn't stop it. It was gonna come out whether I wanted it to or not. And so that was fascinating. But then the other side of this was when I got to the finish line, I was feeling like more like my old self. And I thought, you know, if this experimental thing worked so well outside of our traditional box of EAP talk therapy, chaplains, and peer support, I wonder what else might be out there. So it kicked open this door in my mind to explore alternative things a lot of us would affectionately call woo-woo. And I jumped down every woo-woo rabbit hole I could find, and I'm still doing that to this day. And what I tell people is about 90% of it doesn't really relate to high-stakes professions like first response. About 90% of it really is kind of fluff and non-relational, but 10% is pure gold. So I take the 10%, I apply peer review level science to it to validate it, then I bring it into the classroom as actionable techniques that can be utilized to move you in a positive direction toward building that resilience bank account up to full. That's the whole reason that that journey was so amazing to me. I'd have never gotten there. And the interesting part about that is I have deep gratitude for what I went through because now it's allowing me to help my brothers and sisters continue to take positive steps forward.

Voiceover 7:51

If we haven't walked that path ourselves, how can we help someone or even talk about it in a way that's uh, you know, has any validation to it? So so cool. Did you want to say something, Bonnie?

Bonnie Rumilly 8:02

I'm glad that you brought that example up about coming in for one event and having several come up because that's something that's often misunderstood by people. We recognize it as how trauma gets stored in the brain. And so you may have one channel with several memories, several calls that's really trapped on that one channel. And so releasing one helps to release the others.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

That's a great way to frame it.

Bonnie Rumilly 8:27

And I think that's a good thing that you brought it up for our listeners and viewers because we always expect the unexpected in EMDR. We don't know what other things are gonna come out until we start, you know. And I think people are pleasantly surprised with the relief and pleasantly surprised with the other things that do end up coming out and getting processed, and now they truly do not think about them anymore.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

I I wish we could get ahead of the curve too. You know, I I wish that some of these things were taught at a the depth, a deeper level in the academy forward and became a cultural expectation. I have a vision that, you know, a lot of people are like, well, that's a great idea, but it would cost a lot of money. What's it cost to lose somebody? So my idea is simple. You get hired, you get a brain scan. The brain scan is not to do anything other than to say which functions in your brain are working, which are not. Then we give you some techniques to turn on the areas that might be a little diminished, and we get that balance in the brain. Now we have a baseline. Once a year, you get rescanned, and we see how the job is affecting you over time. And just like going to the dentist a couple of times a year to make sure your teeth don't fall out of your head. How about we go see a mental health professional who can also witness the changes taking place so that we have an earlier intervention? Right now, what we do is reverse engineer healing. We wait for the break and then we try to fix that. And in some cases, that can't be done. What if we stayed ahead of that paradigm? And so this is the way my brain works. I'm just like, can we not get ahead of this curve? And I know we can.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Not everyone is meant to walk this path, and that's okay. But for those who feel the call, for those who read these words and feel not just curiosity, but conviction, know this. By the time a first responder sits across from you, they've likely exhausted every internal resource they have. This isn't a routine appointment, it's their 911 call. I don't know how much longer I can do this job. You won't hear sirens, but the urgency is real. If you choose to take that call, understand what it means. To show up, to stay steady, and to carry the weight of someone who spent a career doing the same for others. This is where the work begins. Be the resource they can count on. Order your copy of Helping the Helpers Today on Amazon, and for bulk orders, email us at info respondertv.com.

Voiceover 11:12

So this is a little bit of a personal question, but I want you to just give us kind of a quick comparison. What what did your morning look like back in the day when you were on the job versus what is your morning like now? What's different?

SPEAKER_04 11:26

There's actually three phases to it. So the first phase is when I first started the job, I had my youth, my health, my resilience. That was a given, just by default of my age. And so I was energetic, enthusiastic, and I was really, really excited to be of service. And my heart has always been a heart of service, and I my natural temperament is that of a guardian to protect. And I think that really is the broad base of anybody in emergency services or high-stakes profession. It's service to community, something beyond the self that you hang your hat on. Then as the PTSD came on, I started to drift. I still was seen as operationally excellent. I was still getting good evaluations, but that energy, that passion that drove it wasn't there anymore. So I was engaged but empty behind it. And so I managed that. Instead of stewarding this body temple, I began to manage it. And the way I managed it was maladaptive coping mechanisms. But I still was able to perform. But what was happening was I'm drifting and draining, I'm not recovering, I'm not restoring, I'm not rebuilding, I'm just operating on fumes at this point. And then when I crashed and burned, and that kicked open all those doors we talked about, I began to re-engage with myself, my career, the people around me. And that passion is back. And now that I'm in the afternoon or maybe the twilight of my life at this point, since I am a boomer officially, um, I'm still energized to get up every day and greet this day because I have purpose and meaning behind what I do. And I treat this body temple as the best way I can. The framework I would say is I am a steward of it. This is not something to be spent and wasted, which is what I witness in all my brothers and sisters, the vast majority, when they get to the end of that career, holy moly, are they used up. What if there was a different way? Well, I'm living proof that there is, but in order to do that, you've got to get that passion and engagement back. And the only way to do it is recognize the drift and then put in protocols that reverse it. So when you ask me how I am today, I'm more like that old version of myself, just a little further down the road, and maybe with a bit more wisdom.

Bonnie Rumilly 14:10

So because you've done so much healing and tried different modalities and you've come up with this great prescription, shall we say, that works for you. You know, you have a lot of things in place now. Could you sort of take us into a comparison of what a morning may have looked like when you were still on the job versus what one looks like now with all of this wisdom and these other practices that you now have in place?

SPEAKER_04 14:35

Yeah, it's it's a great question, and there is a vast difference. So back in the day, I felt that operational excellence and peak performance was absolutely important to do. So in order to accomplish that, I looked at the culture around me, and I looked at the people who I felt exuded that, and then I began to mimic what they were doing. And what they were doing was that kind of driven personality. Push, push, push, obsess over everything, get just the right amount of water, eat all these nutrients, get as many calories in as you can. Go, go, go. From the moment you get up, hit the gym, go, push harder, harder, harder. And that worked until it didn't. What I wasn't doing was allowing recovery. In other words, I was taking all this available energy, and I said, I have all this available energy, I should do something with it, but I didn't maintain it. So the difference is I get up back then in the morning, I'm in the gym, 5 a.m., 4 a.m., whatever it takes, and I'm pushing and pushing and pushing. And sometimes I'd get to the end of the day and say, I should do another workout and go back to the gym. Oh yeah, four hours of sleep? No problem. I'm that guy. I'm just like these people I idolize. And so you can see where I was heading. Today, when I get up, the first thing I do is I center and ground myself with some physical movement. These are exercises from Qi Gung. I love a moving meditation, so I practice qigung and taiji, which are really gentle ways to wake up the body temple and begin to get energy and blood flow into it. I then do a series of wringing the towel exercises, which is the ability to get blood into the joints and tendons where it's very hard to get that, so that it flushes out the things that kind of make us stiff and feeling old in the body. Then I enter a period of chanting. I like to chant because it stimulates the vagus nerve, which controls all the organs in the body. That tenth cranial nerve needs stimulation. Chanting allows it, singing would allow it, humming would allow it, gargling with water would allow it. But I wake it up and then I have a period of meditation. After I do that, I'll typically do some work. And then because I've been sedentary for a minute, I now ask my body, what is it that you need today? So where before, if I didn't feel like going to the gym, I'd still go to the gym, pound that square peg into the round hole. Now I ask my body, what is it you'd like today? Oh, I would like a gym workout today. Great, let's go. You know, I think I'd like a gentle walk around the block while we do some breath work, barefoot on the grass, so that I can ground myself, get my electromagnetic field in tune with the Earth's electromagnetic field. No, it's not woo-woo, it's science. And I feel more restored and rejuvenated. So the wisdom that I have today is to ask the temple, what is it you would like today? Oh, I'd like to do a little stretching, a little gentle this, I'd like to kick some ass. Let's go. And I'm honoring what's alive, so I'm more tuned into the signals my body gives me, and I'm honoring those.

Voiceover 18:24

So uh, so important to be tuned into the body that many of us don't ever do that. Uh we kind of lose touch with it, and um, and the body does talk to us, and if we don't listen, it's gonna tell us in a way that we cannot ignore, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Yeah, you know, David, that's spot on, and there's real science behind it. There's a terrific book if people want to take a little deeper dive. It's called Messages from the Body. And I'll I'll give you an example of how we ignore it. So let's say I get a headache, and I think, well, I I can't have a headache today. I got all this work to do. So I take a couple of over-the-counter uh medicines to help relieve it, and I do. The headache feels better. And then the headache comes back, so I take a couple more. Okay, got through the day. The next day, the headache's there, and I do it again and again and again. And then after a while, I need something stronger. So let me get the extra strength version. When the headache came, that was knocking at the door, it's sending up a little signal. Hey, there's something out of balance. We aren't in homeostasis, we're dysregulated, but we mask it and we move on because we just don't have time. So the extra strength, that doesn't work. So then we go to the doctor, doctor gives us super strength prescription stuff, and then that doesn't work. And then the doctor says, Well, there's not anything else we can do for you. This is now a chronic condition. But did anybody ever ask what the root of the headache was in the beginning? The body is sending us information all the time. When you have discomfort, dysfunction, pain, those are signals. And if we start to pay attention to the signal, then we might be able to find something that allows us to reset it before it becomes chronic. That's the difference.

Voiceover 20:09

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Bonnie Rumilly 20:53

Well, what you're talking about is such a common first responder problem. You know, first responder therapists, when we have a lot of first responders coming in, what do we notice they're disconnected between their brain and their body? They have some, in some cases, like you said, purposely disconnected in order to cope, in order to get through the day, in order to do what they're asking themselves to mentally and physically do. And so I think calling attention to it is very important. The mind and the body are supposed to work together. And it's our job to figure out what that balance looks like in ourselves because what works for you, what works for me, they're gonna be different things. Right. But I think sometimes the culture lends itself to being able to continue that cutoff from your brain and body pattern. So it's important to recognize the pattern first and then to figure out what to do about it. So you've just talked about a lot of things that you try to do to help. There still is this cultural badge of honor, right? Of I'll sleep when I'm dead, I'm gonna work a hundred hours a week. What do you say to those people that are? listening or watching today who that's currently how they're subscribing to their life in law enforcement or other first responder work.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

It's it's an important question. And I'm gonna answer it in maybe a way that's a little different than expected. I wouldn't counsel the individual because what I've found is in the past I've attempted to do so. And instead of leading that horse to water it's a little more like I'm dragging it. And when they get to the water hole, not only will they not drink in it, sometimes they pee in it. It's like okay. The the essence to the individual if I really have someone who's motivated like my why in doing the work that I do is this I work with leaders who are willing to explore and take action on their limitless potential. If somebody doesn't meet that paradigm that just means they're not ready. There's not anything wrong with them. They're just not ready to step into it. So as a result of that I no longer try to drag that horse to the waterhole anymore. If you're stuck in the paradigm that fatigue is worn as a badge of honor, suppression is actually something mistaken as composure that perfectionism is masquerading as oh they're so committed conviction through enthusiasm becomes compliance through numbness you're not ready and that's okay you're not ready. Where I want to focus now is in the cultural expectations of the agency. If we have a leader who wears the badge of honor I'll sleep when I die then the cultural expectation is everyone else should adopt the same philosophy. We have had information now solid peer review leveled information for over 50 years that this doesn't work. When are we going to start waking up to it? So we've got to lead by example and leadership happens at every level of the organization you can be that leader at the line but you're adopting these principles people used to wonder about me. When I came out of PTSD and I started meditating with monks and monastics exploring shamanism how do you think that went over in the 90s not too well and they weren't trusting me. They didn't think because I meditated they literally thought I wouldn't be able to use force against another human being because they associated it with ultra liberalism granola cunching dope smoking hippies and I'm gonna be that guy well they turned out they started really paying attention and they saw every metric of my performance increase. And this is what would happen I'd be in a restaurant having a cup of coffee with my bee partner and they do this nobody's listening and they go hey man about that meditation stuff so there's a curiosity when we lead by example and it can happen at every level but where I want to work now I cannot afford to work one-to-one I have to work with the leaders to create a cultural paradigm shift because I don't have time to reach everybody I've got to think much bigger and scale this to a way that's going to actually impact the most amount of people possible. So that's the current focus.

Voiceover 25:33

Let's dive a little deeper into that um what does it look like when a leader reaches out to you for your services what are they expressing as their pain points what what motivates them to want to make these changes because uh I would think it's not an easy ask um an easy change to make in their mode of leadership let alone the culture of the department it's got to be a a big step for them to take what does that look like in your world super good question.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

The people that are attracted to high stakes profession so that is our fire, our police our EMS our 911 it's physicians in the emergency room and the nurses that support them it's it's high stakes it's aviation it's military that makes up about 4% of the population from a psychological perspective where they're willing to go toward danger rather than away from it. So we're already in a unique profile. The 96% of the world that can't do this job look at us as if it's just incredulous that anyone would run into the hellscape of a burning building to rescue a family right so the 4% are prone to the drift and about 1% of that 4% I'll go from the 96% can't do the job the 4% I'll call them the frontline. They're the ones doing the job day in day out but they're vulnerable. The 1% I refer to as a vanguard. They are the ones that see the big picture and the leaders that we work with are those that are either interested in stepping into the vanguard position or own it but don't know how to disseminate it through the entire organization. So we take the leader who's curious and ready to explore and is willing to be directed enough to take action that they get to implement in the ways that make sense from their perspective we don't ever tell anyone to do what to do we don't cookie cutter. We tailor to the unique personality and culture of that agency to help it evolve over time friends so often we think let's check the box and go to this wellness course, that resilience course okay we did that checked the box but did we actually make behavioral change? Did we actually move the needle? In my opinion and my colleague Dr. Renee Thornton we feel that we must embed ourselves with that leader for a period of five to eight years. And over the course of that in a very structured way we create the change and we want it to be outlasting the leader. It seems to be about an average right now that leaders attain their position and remain about five years. You don't often see that 20, 30 year leader at the top so we want to be able to create a cultural paradigm that the next leader simply inherits and carries forward.

Bonnie Rumilly 28:46

That's the goal well that's really great that you're not in it just for a short-term course but how can we make long-term change and monitor it? So to that point what are some of the metrics that you're using to measure change and how can you reflect some of what's happening culturally back to that leader really intense for the leader.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

So there's a couple of things to answer that the first thing we do for that leader is we give them something we call the current state assessment. So my colleague Dr. Renee Thornton is a peer review level research scientist she's a psychologist and she is also a former Navy rescue swimmer. So she understands high stake professions. She does a current state assessment which is a questionnaire that is sent to every single member of the agency and it goes across numerous metrics to measure how effective that leader is it comes back about that thick. And when they come to our summit which is their first experience with us we hold an annual summit every year and then we have uh monthly things that we're doing throughout the year they get that state assessment on the first night they get there and they get to read it and it is far from complimentary it's sort of like blunt force trauma because the truth is many leaders not all but many kind of adopt the ivory tower paradigm where it's do as I say not as I do and that gets called out we've had a few leaders read that throw it in the trash and leave they literally couldn't take it that's okay they're just not ready. There's nothing wrong with that they're just not at a place that they're ready. Other leaders they come in the next morning they slap that thing down on the desk and they say we're changing this that's the leader we can work with. So that's one way that we give direct feedback about what's working and what isn't working and they get that current state assessment every year. The first two years it's internal the third year we go external to the stakeholders that they are in association with. So it's not just insular within the community how does HR perceive you how does the city council perceive you how do the citizens perceive you are you still doing a good job there have you built that political capital? Are you thinking outside of yourself? And we really keep expanding this so they get a heck of a of a download from how they're actually being perceived in their performance versus what they think they're doing in their performance.

Voiceover 31:38

This episode is brought to you by the First Responder Center for Excellence because even the best of us face unexpected challenges they've got the tools the training and the resources to keep you strong safe and resilient equip yourself at first respondercenter.org secondarily we have programs that everyone goes through in the agency including the leader that begin to start off by building resilience capital.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

And as they go through that we give them a resilience scorecard in the beginning and then as they go through the program we reintroduce that resilience scorecard so we can track what's working and what might need adjustment. So every step of the way we're using peer review science to measure the actual effectiveness and that includes how much finances we have saved. In the agencies that we worked with a couple of years ago there were five primary agencies we save them a measured $3.2 million by applying these concepts I'd love to have you talk about the summit and how that plays a part in in the program but also what what does that look like um just as an event itself? The summit is really beautiful. So this year will be our third year and we've broken our summit into two groups so the first group comes for three days and we take them into an isolated resort. Today this one will be at Lake Walloon before we used to be on Mackkin Island um which is amazing at the Stone Cliff Mackinac Island's really neat because you there's no cars. You either get around by horse drawn carriage or bicycle and it's really remote and it's really beautiful this year it's at Lake Walloon same idea a very contained resort community that takes them out of the known and puts them into something that doesn't have any nexus to their world. So right away they're out of that kind of need to be that chief or director they can let their hair down a little we order them to dress very casually sweatshirt and blue jeans is just fine. We don't want them feeling the psychological impact of the uniform and showing up as that chief no you're among your peers and you can relax here and everything that we do here is contained it's safe it's not going anywhere. So they feel automatically a downshift and in that downshift they're now more open and receptive and I'm gonna use a really scary word vulnerable to explore certain sides of themselves that they've never explored before. And so we start every morning at 6 a.m and they start with me and it's called wake up with Roger and I take them through a series of body energization exercises most of which none of them have ever experienced before to show how you can actually wake up this beautiful temple first thing in the morning with vibrancy so you can start your day not by down in three cups of coffee but by actually taking this energy from the ether and pulling it into your body so that you can become even more adept at everything you do. That's the start at 6 a.m and we roll right about till nine or 10 o'clock at night we take them into this environment where they get to have a moment to download become more open more receptive they start with me with the wake up with Roger and then we begin to move them through the actual strategic planning of what the next year is going to look like so many times the leader will bring their number two we call them the consigliers to give them a nice title and they're there to help that leader execute throughout the year. So they're a point of contact for us and what we're doing is building not only on their resilience but all the aspects of leadership so that when they come back to their known environment they're engaged they are clear they have an absolute roadmap that leads them forward into all the pieces that are going to begin the process of cultural change. And every year they come back they get a new year of activities. And then every month we meet with them and we go over each of the processes and we help them implement that along the way inevitably there is all kinds of interesting dynamics that come to sabotage those processes. If you have a large organization and a union maybe the union says we don't like this change and they're going to fight you every step of the way we provide the ability to navigate through those things with a bit more ease and grace by massaging that into what the culture needs to take it and run. If we tried to do the cookie cutter approach we know that that won't work because each culture is so different. So what are the strengths of that culture? What are the opportunities? What are the roadblocks and obstacles and how are we going to work around them?

Bonnie Rumilly 37:00

That's part of the strategic planning that takes place at this summit that is implemented throughout the year I think it's just such valuable work that you're doing and monumental if you think about it to have these outsiders so to speak come in and really evaluate your culture and see what is working, what is not working you're the truth tellers right and sometimes when we get these scales and surveys they don't lie they they tell people the truth and you're so on the money because if someone doesn't want to know the truth they're gonna walk and it's the same for therapy you know if they come in and we tell them something they don't want to hear about themselves they are going to be gone or they will go to another therapist because they'll say oh well it was the therapist that didn't drive with me. And and look maybe that's sometimes the case but I think what you're suggesting is really monumental. And I'm wondering just one more little caveat is there something that leaders could do to make this more palatable to even get to the place of saying I'd like to have this consultant and his team come in and do an evaluation do you have advice even just at that step?

SPEAKER_04 38:15

That is probably one of the most important aspects of integration right we've had leaders who strong is a word I might use and they just come back and say here's what we're doing don't care if you like it it's gonna happen and what we see predictably is a lot of resistance. People are not ready for change and especially the kind of change we're talking about I mean this is paradigm shifting right so that sets up a lot of unnecessary adversity and challenge. So when that leader falls on their own sword so to speak and shares that State of the Union report with everyone in the agency and then outlines the steps that they would like to take in order to do that and takes input from everyone in the agency who gets an equal voice in how to move forward, the plan starts to coalesce unique to the agency's culture. And what that does is give people a more honest and sincere impression of that leader that we're no longer the house divided against itself. We're moving more toward collaboration and unity as a unit to create a beautiful culture. So it isn't just the leader saying do as I say. It's the leader coming back and going I hear you you were very loud very clear and very precise about where I am dropping the ball here's what I'm gonna do to correct that. And we know that this isn't working in our agency here's what we're going to do to move with that. We're working with a firm that is guiding us through this process. So this is something we're all going to do together. And when you get that happening the resistance tends to just melt away because the old paradigm of trying to shove something down everybody's throat isn't there. You could build the best let's call it a wellness program if as an example you could build the best wellness program in the world and say I've brought this to you guys everybody's gonna do it and the department says the hell I will they just resist because the admin wants it well that's a sure sign that you've been drifting for a long time as a culture and you've got division within your your ranks. The idea is to bring that soften it open up to it and say no we're all in this together and I recognize where I'm dropping the ball here's what I'm going to do about it. So by sharing that with everyone and bringing them into the process they now become stakeholders in that future being created that tends to lower those walls of resistance.

Voiceover 41:15

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SPEAKER_04 42:41

When we do the State of the Union reports year to year the leaders who implement everything that was agreed upon at that summit and execute that well the State of the union the next year is almost a hundred and eighty degree reversal so we might see a lot of criticism and then we see praise. This has become a totally different place to work the energy vampires aren't doing their thing anymore like there's a huge shift and we can see that directly because we're doing the research to see where it's landing and where it isn't. And what I can tell you is where the balls were dropped well it shows up in the State of the Union report. So there's direct feedback there. That's one there's also really cool thing that we do it's called the why discovery process. So every leader and their number two goes through our why discovery and what we do is interview them about some of the meaningful life events they've been through. From that we tease out these resilience factors that have made them who they are and then from that they craft a why statement for themselves that's based on the entire Of their life utterly unique to that person. It's the kind of thing that should give you goosebumps when you read it and bring passion into your work because you're living that as a truth. So that happens at the leadership level. And then we do a Y discovery process for the entire agency, and everybody gets a chance to contribute to it, craft it. And this is far more than a mission statement. The classic one in law enforcement is to protect and serve. This is much bigger than that. So the agency comes up with it and then it starts showing up everywhere. They literally mount it on walls, they put it on business cards, they put it as a tagline in an email. They use it in promotional materials. Now, I want you to think about something. Here's a direct example of one, just one small area that had a complete change. We work with a couple of divisions in the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, directly with communications. One of them was having a tremendous amount of difficulty getting enough applicants to apply for positions, and staffing was a real issue. They decided to do two things. One, to make their why the leading statement on all outreach material for hiring. The second was they began to scout people who fit the why that naturally aligned with it. So they would typically go from about 200 applicants for a position and just be thankful they could fill a butt in a seat to having over 600 applications of highly qualified people. What changed? The young generations coming in want to know why they're doing what they're doing. We all complain about the millennial who keeps asking why, why, why, why? It's like, oh my God, are you five years old? No, they're trying to define what it is that's going to motivate them to be there. When they understand why they're there, watch them. They'll become some of your best employees you've ever had because the passion behind what you're doing resonated with them. State the why, scout for the talent that fits it, and watch the culture change. That's one example of how powerful this can be.

Voiceover 46:27

I know you're a prolific writer and you've authored a number of books and got a new one coming out. So share with us about that and any other events or trainings or anything you want to share about your work.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

Well, we've got a number of trainings that we do. Um, you don't have to be embedded into this cultural paradigm change. We have other ways to think about things. So, for example, we have a thing that we uh utilize for helping agencies scout the right talent because hiring has become a real challenge to get qualified people. How do you do that? Hiring and retention. So we have entire workshops around that. So if you're interested in learning a little bit more about some of the classroom things we do that are not tied to a five to eight year program that you may not be ready for, you can go to pathfinderresilience.com and take a look at our offerings there. That's one. The second is we're expanding now and we're adding a new uh yearly summit this March. So in November and March, we chose those dates because there aren't a lot of trainings happening for emergency services. It's also not the busy time of year. It generally things are a little quieter on average, and that allows the leaders to be able to step into that a little more effectively. We have seats open for March. So if you're interested in that, again, just go to PathfinderResilience.com, then you'll see how to apply for that. And it is an application. We don't accept everyone. They've got to be ready and they're good they're gonna jump through a few hoops to prove it because we don't want to waste your time. That's that's the bottom line. If somebody's not ready, they're simply not ready. And then the latest announcement I have uh my fifth book is coming out. I wrote this with my colleague, Dr. Renee Thornton. And you can find us on Amazon. Just put my name in there or put Dr. Thornton's name in there, all our books will pop up. This latest book is called Honor the Temple. And this is exactly how we started our conversation today, where instead of spending this and wasting it and getting to the end of the career broken, we're adopting this idea that we are stewards of this body temple. You know, Bonnie, you had mentioned the mental and the physical, but this is also about something beyond ourself, that we have a duty and an obligation to maintain this beautiful vessel as an act of service. This is not a religious doctrine. I want to be very clear about that, but this is taking it beyond just mental and physical so that we understand this is an expression of my service, and I have an obligation to maintain it. Here's an example of how this kind of shifts the idea. When we suggest to someone you should invest more time in your self-care, well, that's obvious, but so isn't self-care negotiable? I, you know, I'll get to that tomorrow. I was too busy today. But when you say to the firefighter, do this so that you can be at your best, when you run into that building to rescue that family and enter that hellscape of fire so that you can help that family. We're now hanging our hat on something that is beyond self. That becomes less a negotiation point and more of a duty and obligation to the community. You have sworn you would serve. This is what changes everything. So I'm very proud of this book. We take the example of a master on a mountain in a dojo, and he is training a samurai, and we work through the entire process of what it looks like to take on an obligation of service in this particular book, but we don't stop there. A lot of books can be read, and you can have a great time with it, and you can think those are some really good thoughts. But how does behavior change? So, in order to help with the behavioral change, we also created a workbook. So as you work through the actual book and the workbook, you now have actionable steps that allow you to move into that paradigm of true duty service to something beyond yourself. Amazing work, amazing work.

Voiceover 51:03

Bonnie, final thoughts.

Bonnie Rumilly 51:06

Roger, this has really been enlightening and I think very hopeful. You know, we have a good footing in talking about the problems, the weaknesses, what's going on. And I think in this conversation, do we acknowledge those things? Yes, but it's important to get beyond that and to see how do we get to the next horizon and the how is what I think we all need to be spending more attention on. So I really appreciated this conversation. I know we've learned a lot. Our viewers and listeners have learned a lot, and I hope we'll also take some of the things you said and really be introspective about their agency, their workplace, and how could they just think that a little bit differently to impart some of this change?

SPEAKER_04 51:50

Thank you for that. I I do appreciate it. You know, it's it's it's so important that we have mentors and guides along the way. I think back on my life, and the reason I get to be here is I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, as we are prone to say, but I mean it. If you want to have a little reflection exercise, try this. Ask yourself when your genuine regulation used to be automatic when you started the career, ask yourself this question What is it costing you now? What does it require of you today? Is it still genuine? Or is there something that has been lost along that way? Reflect on that for a moment. Because here's the absolute truth. You will never be that first version of yourself. You're older. But can you recover the essence of the passion that drove you before and become something that maintains this beautiful temple to move forward in the best way you possibly can? Oh, that's absolutely possible. Just pay attention to where you may have drifted and know that there are ways to restore that. Yeah, you'll never be 20 again. Not gonna happen. But can you be this more mature, beautiful, wisdom-oriented person and move that forward? Definitely.

Voiceover 53:19

When I think of you, I think of a true collaborator, um, a person who truly supports others in their work, and we are so happy to support you and yours. And I also think about the way you're using the word resilience. Um, we started that, you know, as part of our podcast name six years ago, when it before became a buzzword, and now it has blown up to the point where uh it's lost some of the integrity and the meaning. But what you're doing and using resilience as part of that is got nothing but integrity, nothing but depth and value and um and gravitas. So um salute you for all you're doing and continue to do. It's uh always a pleasure, my friend.

SPEAKER_04 54:01

It is a joy to be here. It's it's truly an honor for me because you know, David and Bonnie, I you're doing the real work and you're helping to bring this information to more people, which is going to help us all take a step. I find that absolutely beautiful, and I feel that true collaboration with you, a joy to be a part of that.

Voiceover 54:21

Likewise, for sure. Thank you, Roger. Thank you. Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube responder resilience, Facebook Responder TV. We're on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and a bunch of other platforms. And our website is respondertv.com. Till the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care.