S6 E42 Firefighter Identity & Mental Health: Doug Hexel, Fire Lieutenant & USAR Specialist

SPEAKER_05 0:00

I'm 13 years in now. I've been an officer for almost five years. I love doing what I do. I would not want to be doing anything else, but when I leave work, work leaves me. I mean, you want to talk about mental health. Just knowing that you have a leader who's looking out for you, that is a huge kind of boost in morale and mental health. We have so many rescue specialists, technical rescue people who just want to get in there, grab that patient, and drag them out. And that's death by rescue. We do everything that we can to help people, but we're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. You could do absolutely everything perfectly and still have a negative outcome because that's just life.

Voiceover 0:46

Welcome to Responder Resilience. I'm David Dashinger, along with my co-host, Bonnie Rumoli, LCSW EMTB. Today our guest is Doug Hexel. He's a fire lieutenant and a rescue specialist in New York's Urban Search and Rescue Task Force. He's also a paramedic, a New York State Peace Officer, and an instructor who teaches technical rescue and EMS courses at conferences across the country. Today we're going to step away from that technical side of the job and talk a little more about the toll that it takes. Doug's here to talk about resilience, what that actually means, where it gets confused with just getting a good at hiding the pain, and what leaders owe the people under their command. This episode is brought to you by Fight Camp, real training on your schedule. Head to jointfightcamp.com/slash RR and use code RESILIIENTES for 10% off. There's a new app built by Firefighters for firefighters, and it's called Crackle. Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop. Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com. This episode is brought to you by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Because even the best of us face unexpected challenges. They've got the tools, the training, and the resources to keep you strong, safe, and resilient. Equip yourself at FirstresponderCenter.org. Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube, respond resilience, Facebook, We're Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. And our website is respondertv.com. We'll be right back to speak with Doug after this. Ask a first responder who they are. And you're likely to hear I am a police officer. I am a firefighter. I am a 911 communications operator. I do this work. I do this job. Ask a clinician why they work with first responders.

Bonnie Rumilly 2:37

And they may say, There's no fire calling helping.

Voiceover 2:42

Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are priorities. And where no one has to carry the weight alone. Welcome to Responder Reality. We try to spotlight the unseen battles of first responder reality. Celebrate the powerful wins that come from the critic, post-traumatic. We understand the culture, under the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole. With your host, Retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Roomley, LCSW EMT. He sits on the state's pediatric EMS Advisory Committee. Doug also teaches at conferences around the country, primarily focusing on bridging the gap between fire and EMS and technical rescue. He's a sworn New York State Peace Officer and holds technical level certifications in hazmat, rope, confined space, trench, swiftwater, and collapse rescue. Doug, welcome to Respond to Resilience.

SPEAKER_05 4:03

Thank you for having me.

Bonnie Rumilly 4:04

Doug, we can tell we have another underachieving friend joining us this morning. You know, it it was really great to meet you for listeners and viewers. I met Doug at a mutual conference we were both presenting at, and it became pretty evident pretty quickly that we should have Doug here to talk about his experience, his journey, his thoughts on things. So we really, really appreciate you being here, Doug. And this question that I always seem to start with, it never gets old because the answer is always different on the other side, and we never know what we're gonna get. But we're really good in fire and EMS at taking care of everybody else, right? We can rush in there, take care of a perfect stranger. Why so reluctant to help ourselves when it comes to mental health?

SPEAKER_05 4:54

Uh as you know, I'm sure you've gotten you know a variety of answers over the years. Uh that that's really, really difficult to answer because I I think it varies from person to person. Uh I don't think there's any one answer uh that that um anybody can give you. Uh I can tell you that, you know, personally for me, um, I'm kind of you know my my last priority uh a lot of times. Uh, you know, I get home from work, you know, I work a 24-hour shift, I come home. Uh, you know, sometimes my my wife has to go off to work and it's immediately, you know, the kids are on me, um, you know, two young kids, two and seven. Uh, you know, like my seven-year-old just went back to school. Um, but you know, it it's I'm immediately my my last priority. And uh I'm you know, my last priority throughout the day while I'm taking care of the kids. Uh, you know, if my daughter's at school, my two-year-old's napping, I have a little bit of, you know, time to myself. And then it's, you know, straight into, you know, after school activities, you know, having uh, you know, meals for the kids and and you know, meal for my wife when she gets home. And uh, you know, I I don't get uh you know a lot of time to prioritize myself um you know as as much as I'd like to uh sometimes. Um I I have uh I do I do take steps to to prioritize myself. I have my own activities. Um you know I'm I'm the kids are at the age now where sometimes I can you know I can bring them to the gym and and you know park them in the corner with some activities and you know an iPad, yeah, you know, for an hour a day, you know, they'll be fine. Um you know, so I I have taken steps, but I I know in in reality it's it's life, you know, for a lot of people that that gets in the way. It's it's you know less the job. Uh, you know, the when when I'm at work, that that's kind of my you know, my time. That that's uh you know, my my wife and I joke about it all the time, where you know, if we're if we're on vacation or you know, we have time off, we're like, you know, I need a break, I need to go back to work. Um, you know, that that's uh um but I feel like for for a lot of you know it it doesn't matter, you know, law enforcement, firefighters, EMS, combinations, um, you know, life gets in the way. Uh even some of our younger guys who who um you know don't have families and kids yet. You know, one of the guys at work was, you know, really stressed out the other day as as he was like getting ready to leave and he was like rushing to leave. And I was like, you know, what do you what do you got going on today? He's like, I gotta get to my other job. We've got a bunch of you know, a bunch of jobs to do. Um he does contracting on the side, and and uh, you know, I'm like, you guys were busy last night, right? He's like, Oh yeah, we know we got crushed last night, and like now you're you're rushing off to your next job, no, no time for yourself. Um, you know, and I think that's just kind of the the nature of of I mean how a lot of people are. It's not just you know in our profession, it's just you know, most people don't have to uh you know see what we see and do what we do and then go back to their regular lives.

Voiceover 8:08

Yeah, I think what you're touching on there, Doug, is that um you know we're kind of built for the sirens, right? We're wired for that, you know, constant, you know, activity and we're not so good with silence and sitting still and doing nothing. So um, even though you know we we kind of complain about being busy, we love it, right? On some level, that's really where we thrive. But what's the line between being resilient and just hiding the fact that we're struggling and suffering in silence?

SPEAKER_05 8:36

Uh that's a great question. Uh so resilience ver versus uh suffering in in silence. Uh, I feel like resilience is is having a way to channel the stress, having having a way to direct it, um, you know, having something to kind of fall back on and help process it, uh, versus you know, just going on on call after call and and you know, bottling it up and and just you know holding on to it. Um like you said, I I do feel like you know resilience has become kind of a buzzword. Um a lot of uh Bonnie, as you as you know with with conferences right now, um, you know, mental health is a huge topic at a lot of these conferences. And quite often it's not a mental health professional teaching these classes. And obviously I'm not a mental health professional, but you know, here I am on this podcast. I I think it's good to to hear you know people's perspectives and and you know hear things that that work for other people, but you know, it's not it's not one size fits all. And and uh, you know, I I've I've seen and and kind of taken issue with you know a couple people standing up and you know in in front of a crowd and saying, do this, this, and this, you know, because that worked for them. Um that that's that's not gonna work for everybody. And uh, you know, there there's really no uh you know substitute for for professional assistance.

Voiceover 10:07

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Bonnie Rumilly 10:58

Well, I appreciate you bringing that up because I think sometimes people try to bypass mental health in these professions, especially. And maybe because there are so many options on the menu, like you can go do really great supplemental things. And I think Stacy and I would both say the same thing, but as therapists, we love it when people go do tactical breathing and jujitsu and all of these other sort of supportive um alternative things. It's phenomenal for our clients. But you're making a really good point. The part that we don't ever want to bypass is mental health and using professionals when needed or as needed. It is important. So I I'm glad that you did bring that part of things up here. Um, we all know that years upon years of traumatic calls has a wear and tear on every first responder. What are some of the things that you have noticed take place in people after years and years of that that maybe they're not even recognizing in themselves?

SPEAKER_05 12:01

Uh I I can tell you that it's um, you know, something that I that I see that's pretty um, you know, broad, especially when when uh you know I'm I'm hanging out with people out outside of work or you know, out with my family is is uh, you know, we become uh kind of hyper-vigilant and and always expecting bad things to happen. Um, you know, it's it's because you know, we often see you know bad things. I I can tell you, you know, it's it's you know, I'm I'm I'm not a crowd person. I I hate going through crowds. I'm always, you know, my head's always on the swivel, I'm always looking around. Uh, you know, especially when, you know, I'm I'm doing something where I work and I'm seeing people I know and seeing people I've had on calls and and uh you know trying to you know avoid those people a lot of times and and uh you know it's I I think that's part of it is is we see a lot of people who you know kind of look at the the negatives or or are you know constantly you know what what's next, what's what's coming next, what's um you know what bad thing is you know could happen or you know what do I need to look out for. Um David, I'm sure you've you know had had similar experiences before. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's uh um you know just uh you know little things when I'm when I'm staying in a hotel, when I'm I'm speaking at conferences, I'm I'm always you know, I'm asking, you know, give me something at the end of the hall, close to the stairs, you know. Um, you know, little things like that. Uh you know, just because of the the years and years of of you know constantly seeing bad.

Voiceover 13:42

Yeah, yeah, that's a great example. Hotels uh traveling a lot, you start to think about the room selection in a whole different way as a first responder. Um Doug, I'm fascinated about this, and I'm sure you can speak to it. Um when you are involved in a prolonged incident, a technical rescue incident, what are some of the stressors and some of the I don't know, I guess the parts of it that stick with responders after the call is done that you find you know we're not doing enough to address after the fact?

SPEAKER_05 14:17

So one of the most difficult parts of technical rescue, and it it's this is kind of getting into my my niche here for for uh you know bridging technical rescue in EMS is that we're all so type A and we're taught, you know, get in there and and you know drag the person out to waiting responders. And that is typically the the worst thing that we can do in the majority of technical rescue situations. And uh, you know, especially if you're looking at something like a collapse rescue where you know somebody we have a prolonged entrapment, um, you know, getting to that finding that patient is is uh you know literally step one of the rescue phase. And and we have so many um you know rescue, uh, you know, rescue specialists, technical rescue people who just want to get in there, grab that patient, and drag them out. Um and and that's death by rescue. You know, it's it's the the uh you know kind of cliche term, but it's true. And and we see it unfortunately uh you know too often from from you know untrained rescuers, but the thought of, you know, here we finally found this person in in you know in rubble and and uh you know we just want to get them out and we want and they want to get out. Obviously, you know, we're we're there and they're like, get me out of here. Like, you know, well hold on, we have to have the you know, medical specialists need to get in here and they need to assess you and and treat you. And uh, you know, sometimes it's that's a a prolonged operation, and and we have a bunch of these, you know, we have a bunch of of you know technical rescue people who who just want to grab the person, pull them out, and just want to lift whatever's off them and and let's get them out. But we need to stop because medical treatment now is is the priority. Everything works around that. It doesn't matter if we you know can free this person quicker if we kill them in the process. We're we're we're in a rescue mode, we're not in a in a uh, you know, grab them and and drag them out mode. Uh that's you know, that's isolated to to ideal H environments. It's it's not the same as going into a fire and finding a victim and dragging them out because you know the the air outside's better than the air inside. We need to to take our time and and I think that is the biggest difficulty. And I I've seen um I've seen people you know get really, really upset before on like, why haven't we, you know, why aren't we pulling this person out? Why aren't we in there trying to lift, you know, get this stuff off them? It's like, well, medical's with them right now. And uh this is something that I've really pushed, um, kind of kind of bridging the gap. Is uh in technical rescue, they're victims. In EMS, they're patients. And uh I I feel I I mean they're they're two words, they're they're essentially synonyms, but I feel like victim uh kind of takes away the the person. You know, it's it makes them sound more like uh an object than saying the patient. Uh so that's something I've I've you know also you know corrected people on, especially you know, during training, like, oh we got a victim. You know, you have a patient, you have a patient, or you know, uh to try to kind of humanize it. Um so I think that's the the biggest um I mean the the the psychological factor of of you know finding the this person, knowing that they need to be rescued, and being told stop, wait, keep waiting. Um, I think that's probably the most difficult uh you know part of technical rescue.

Bonnie Rumilly 18:01

So, how can you advise people to gain more patience in those moments or to sort of pull themselves maybe out of their amygdala and look at the bigger picture that you're talking about here? How can you proactively teach people that mindset ahead of time?

SPEAKER_05 18:17

You said it, the the bigger picture is is just you know, remind people, you know, the bigger picture is all right, we found the person. Um, you know, it it's it's very common in in you know, still in especially, you know, if we're if we're doing like a training scenario and and uh you know they they find the victim and or or the patient and uh I'm saying victim because it's typically the the search specialist or rescue specialists finding them. Um and their next um you know, more or less uh you know, their next order is okay, you know, the this is what I need to rescue them. Um, you know, I I need, you know, I'm gonna need two 24-inch struts, you know, and then they they start calling out, you know, the technical side of things, you know, reminding them bigger picture. Step one, once you find them, is get medical to them. Um, you know, we need to get in, we need to assess them. And uh I'm fortunate in that I started on the rescue side and I spent several years as a rescue specialist uh before moving over to medical specialist role. I can actually fill either role if if need be. Um but uh I I think integrating them is is one of the biggest things. And and we're really fortunate on our team in that, you know, even the probably the majority of our rescue specialists are are also you know paramedics. Um you know, we're we're comprised of of uh you know mostly career firefighters from from uh from the area. So so we do have a lot of a lot of paramedics who who understand that you know we we need to to begin medical treatment. Um the the problem that we encounter is is there's a lot of places in this country where fire and EMS are separate, um, where EMS have you know next-to-no you know rescue training, and a lot of places where fire have next to no EMS training. And uh, you know, especially if you're working somewhere where it's a municipal fire department and maybe you run BLS first response, but you're the primary rescue agency for that area, but you have a commercial ambulance agency that runs ALS transport, uh, you know, where do you um you know kind of kind of blend the two together? How do you do that? Um, you know, is is that a provider who's going to be willing to to you know go in a hole? Uh is that a a company that's going to be willing to cover that provider to go in the hole to you know treat patient? And um, so that that's uh you know really training and and preparedness is where that that comes into play.

Voiceover 20:53

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SPEAKER_05 21:49

So uh, you know, specific to our team, I'm I'm sure that's something that that we would you know be able to facilitate. I know that uh, you know, the as far as I know the you know, most of the agencies that that comprise the team have uh you know peer support, um, you know, have have uh um you know, peer support team and and you know professional therapists that that are you know contracted and and everywhere it's um I believe it's state law here that um you know workplaces have to have an EAP program. Um, you know, so that's always an option that that's separate from our our peer support team and our our uh you know like our our staff uh or our city you know psychologist.

Bonnie Rumilly 22:31

Um so you know yeah the you the the resources are there I wanted to pivot and we've talked about this with other people but curious about your thoughts on it. Um we see a a cultural shift, a generational shift within the fireworld right now. We'd love to hear your thoughts on that. And also do you see it spilling into EMS and and just sort of talk about that big picture?

SPEAKER_05 22:59

Yeah, so there's a uh a big um I I was driving you know earlier this morning and and kind of thinking about uh uh article ideas, honestly, and and uh you know kind of um you know blending tradition and innovation. Um the the that's uh a big almost unspoken topic in in uh you know the fire service world right now and I'm not talking about you know the the the guys who want to hold on to the leather helmets versus you know the the European helmets you know I'm not I'm not talking about that kind of thing I'm talking about the uh um kind of the mindset uh you know kind of the uh you know we've we've always done things this way so we're gonna continue to do them that way uh you know kind of mindset and uh I mean that's that's in every it's not anything that's unique to to you know fire EMS or law enforcement uh you know talking to to you know my my kids you know friends parents you know who are in in offices and and work at GE and you know there there's uh they they talk about constantly you know fighting the the we've always done things you know this way uh you know kind of thing and and uh there there is a big um kind of cultural shift in like you said in in in all of these uh you know occupations um where you know we're we're starting to talk about mental health and you know a lot of it comes out of uh you know the military where um you know we've we acknowledge you know PTSD is is a huge problem with with people coming back from combat and and you know PTSD you know and or and you know cumulative stress can uh you know carries back over to uh you know obviously EMS and and fire and and and law enforcement and and kind of recognizing uh that it's not just something that you know we we we have to deal with that that there's you know ways to help uh there's definitely that shift there's definitely that acknowledgement um you know like I said I I'm I'm fortunate with a progressive department that has a a peer support team and and has a uh you know a staff psychologist who's on call uh you know so it there's definitely that that shift um is is either taking place or has taken place um you know around the country as a leader in your department as a leader in search and rescue and technical rescue I know we we have to kind of be aware of a lot of things in that leadership position obviously seeing you know situational awareness seeing safety and all that but is there anything you're always kind of keeping uh your eye out for with the people that are under your supervision in terms of stress mental health problems that they might be encountering that you know you want to follow up on or address after the call is over? Yeah absolutely and obviously in our field you know these are people that I I you we live with we we essentially live with them a quarter of the time uh you know my my department's 24 on 72 off so you know we we eat with these people we go on calls with them we see them um I'm pretty good at this point of of you know coming in in the morning and uh looking at somebody and and being like what's going on uh you know the baby was up last night I I slept like crap you know okay you know that that's fine that's that's something we can manage uh you know versus like I've been you know fighting with my wife nonstop like I don't know like you know do you need to go home no I I'd rather be here um you know it it's it's easy um you know I I think most people are are are good at reading the people you you're around constantly and uh you know can tell when when something's wrong uh as a as a leader as a as a uh fire officer um that's part of my job is you know I need to make sure at the the number one um you know prior well number two priority after after safety um is is uh you know preparedness are are we ready to to go on the next call um you know are are we ready um physically uh and mentally you know it it's it's not just you know do we have water in the tank you know do we do we have all of our tools it is uh you know it is everybody mentally ready to go on this call uh you know we're we're a busy um you know inner city department and uh we we tend to have you know training at at nine in the morning and uh you know we come in at at 7 30 for our eight o'clock shift and you know if we do a call and then we have training at nine uh there's a good chance we're not having breakfast right uh you know I I encourage guys you know we we we tend to keep stuff you know that we can grab and go you know get something to eat uh you know that that's that's being prepared that's our are we gonna are are we able to to respond to the next call uh you know if we I'm I'm very fortunate my my shift commander is great uh he's uh deputy chief rank um but if it's you know 1 30 or 2 in the afternoon we've been running a bunch of calls um you know he's he's really good and he comes from the military also where he was a a commissioned officer um you know get a text you know did you guys eat yet you know hey Depp no we haven't all right you're out of service till you have lunch um you know little things like that um I mean you want to talk about mental health just just knowing that you have a leader who's looking out for you um that that is a huge um uh a huge kind of kind of boost in in morale and and mental health uh you know especially in in in uh you know the emergency services is is uh just just knowing that that your leader is looking out for you and uh you know I try to do that with with uh my guys you know and and make sure that that we're at at you know peak readiness uh mentally um so I I think you know as leaders it's you can't just uh oh you know so and so is having a bad day um you know if they're having a bad day and and they're not ready um you know they they need to not be at work right now so yeah well to go back to the technical rescue stuff because that really is fascinating and and being in that officer leadership position in that realm as well can you talk a little bit about let's say you have one of your technical rescues and it doesn't go well what are some things you've learned to say to that newer person who thought they were going to jump into this situation and save the world uh so it's really important uh uh during during these uh you know AARs hot washes whatever you want to call them um you know critiques when we're when we're talking about the incident that happened um you know going over things um you know technically in in terms of you know this is what happened this is what we tried to do this is why it didn't work you know this is why nothing we could have done would work um you know stressing that that it's it's not their fault it's not something they did or didn't do or the group did or or didn't do um you know or or the whole team did or didn't do it's it's um you know that this um you know was was an inevitable you know consequence of what happened it's it's it's not our fault it's not something that that we contributed to it just it happened the chapters of helping helpers build intentionally layering cultural understanding trauma insight therapeutic strategy and professional sustainability into a coherent whole each section is designed to deepen the clinician's ability to show up with skill respect and lasting impact in a field where the stakes could not be higher this is not easy work it will test your skill your boundaries and your ability to carry without absorbing but for those who choose it with intention and integrity it can become the most meaningful work of a clinical career I'm happy to hear you say those things and sometimes in our office when we get that firefighter um and we're working not on the call but we're working on the betrayal of I went through this terrible thing or I saw this terrible thing.

Bonnie Rumilly 32:01

Not only I couldn't do something for the victim or the patient, but no one checked on me. No one told me that this would happen in any situation and that it could have been any person on that scene and the same thing would have happened. I see so many people in therapy that feel untended to and just betrayed I guess by the process. So for you to go ahead and say it's important for leadership to say those kinds of things, I think you're right on the money. I think we could really really prevent a lot of what we end up seeing in our offices if people really did stop and just think about the basics thinking about pulling someone off the road to feed them thinking about pulling a crew off if they've had a terrible PD code and let them have an hour to call their own family and get themselves together. What you're saying yes it's basic but it's so so critical on the back end of what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_05 33:01

Yeah and and again I think that um you know it comes back to uh you know there there was a mentality of like you know that uh you know older the you know some of the now retired people who were you know uh the leaders when I was you know brand new with the fire department um you know none of their officers ever reached out to them or asked them how they were doing uh you know so why would they you know do that to to their uh you know guys and and you know that that just kind of you know trickled down for a while uh but again there's there's been that that shift in in culture where where that's normal now. You know I've when I hear that you know oh you know engine four had a bad call yesterday uh you know and I'm I'm looking at the roster and okay who was working yesterday texting that person you know hey you guys good um you know and and same thing on on my end you know we have a bad call and uh you know we get back within a couple hours there's a couple people you know calling texting you know hey heard you guys had a bad call everybody you know everything okay um you know that that's the norm now that's not uh uh you know that that's obviously a a good thing uh that that's the the norm that's just how we operate I'm gonna ask you to put on your instructor hat for a second and we're gonna come at this same thing we've been talking about from a slightly different angle that's when you're out there training people uh say on technical rescue and look as we're saying some of these calls don't go the way we would hope they do right we'll show up with all best intentions to you know save a life but sometimes you know the cards are not in that we're not dealt a set of cards that uh we're not dealt a hand of cards that allows that to play out is there some way that as instructors we can be mentally preparing rescuers, firefighters EMS to go into these situations and be able to cope with the fact that you know we are we can't change sometimes we can't change the the reality and I know what a lot of us take it really hard. A lot of us feel like we failed and how how would you approach that as an instructor uh absolutely I when when I was teaching in a a paramedic program um I have to say I I was probably one of the most complained about instructors and uh I think our our clinical coordinator would would probably agree with that um because you know especially if you know we we'd run a scenario and you know a a good sharp student who knew exactly what they were doing who was beyond the you know the the um you know baseline competency they they were already a a profit you know proficient paramedic they just didn't have the card yet uh you know I I would run them through a a patient they would do absolutely everything correctly and I would kill the patient and they would go what what did I do wrong you didn't do anything wrong well I don't understand why did they die it just happened sometimes and but but I don't understand but I you're telling me I did everything right but the patient still died yes welcome to reality that that happens um that's something to just be prepared for um you know you can do absolutely everything correct and that person's still going to die it just was not their day it was not our day uh you know it's nothing that that you know we did there's nothing we could have done differently and at the time you know I got a lot of uh you know people going back and complaining to the clinical coordinator like I you know we did everything right and he still you know killed the patient um but I've since I I've had quite a few you know past students um you know come back to me and and say you know hey you and and Geo Geo is one of the other you know instructors um you know you you guys prepared us more than you know everybody else combined uh you know with kind of facing the reality of of of this job uh in that you know we we do everything that we can to to uh you know help people but you know we're we're not perfect nobody's perfect you could do absolutely everything perfectly and still have a negative outcome because that's just life I think it's great you're pointing this out because yes it's obvious to anybody going into these fields they know sometimes it doesn't work out but when you're especially training and learning this new thing and it becomes such a part of who you are you don't even let yourself entertain that yet.

Bonnie Rumilly 38:03

And you see so many people, you know, they come out of EMS um they come out of their training they have their shiny card and then they go on this call and it's like you see the day that their world crumbles and that they realize what you just were able to teach in a training session. So maybe we need to start building more proactive resilience and letting people know what the expectations are before they go into it. Because I do think that old model was you know we're gonna save everybody. And then when you don't because that's what you're taught, there is that feeling of well maybe it's me. Maybe I'm the problem like I I did something wrong here. So I really hope that people that just heard your approach would take that into their own departments because it seems like something so minor but again monumental in someone's career.

SPEAKER_05 38:55

And you just touched on something you said you know that this is paraphrasing you know this is who we are um you know I I think that's another another uh kind of cultural shift that that um you know we need to to kind of kind of focus on um you know you you read my professional bio at the beginning and that you know that's because it's it's you know my my professional bio but if I were to write a a you know personal bio I'm uh father first I'm I'm a husband you know second um you know I I have I'm I'm an animal lover um you know I I I have faith you know and and you know firefighter paramedic USAR law enforcement that that would be pretty low you know down not not you know not at the bottom but um you know I'm uh you know I'm a PTO president you know like the these are are you know there's so much more uh you know important to me and and there are people who eat sleep and breed this job where that that is their personality um you know and and believe me I want somebody who loves this job I I still love this job you know I'm I'm 13 years in now I've been an officer for almost five years um I love my job I I love doing what I do um you know I I would not want to be doing anything else uh but when I leave work work leaves me um and uh I I think we have a lot of people who who struggle with that where um you know their their uh um you know their their whole personality is built around them being uh you know an emergency responder um and and I think that's something that that's you know fairly unique to to to our field um you know I've I've been out plenty of times and and you know looked at somebody and and gone yeah that's a firefighter there um you know I've I've never you know been out and about at the the mall or the movie theater or you know out to dinner and looked at somebody and been like oh that's an electrician right there you know or or that that's a lawyer you know that that's it it's uh it's so you know foreign kind of outside of our our world um so that I think that's something that that uh you know we we it you can love this job and I do I I absolutely love this job um I I got into this job because my house burned down when I was a kid like that's um you know that that's that's what got me um you know in into the fire service um you can love your job and not live your job um it doesn't need to be every waking moment.

Bonnie Rumilly 41:53

I I love what you're saying and I'm I'm really chuckling to myself here because I was with a group of my therapist colleagues last week we're at a training and there was a huge loud noise in the other side of the room and I turned to look quick and I I think I said out loud in front of a colleague did somebody fall and she kind of laughed at me and she goes wow you're always on the ready for something to happen and I'm like look you can take the girl out of EMS you can't take EMS out of the girl so I think what you're saying is so important. You know we all identify with it to a greater degree you know if you compare it all of us but there are nuances and pieces to it that don't leave you. You are always I think having that responsibility of wherever you are like you said you don't love the crowd thing because you and I both know if something goes down in that crowd, you're gonna be right there to help. So I think there's a responsibility that comes with it even if the identity shouldn't be there. There is that I think personal responsibility feeling but it's funny because we could all come up with those examples, right?

Voiceover 43:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think um what what you're talking about if you you know kind of play that timeline forward um it's one of the biggest struggles in retirement is that single source identity. Now leaving the job going from 100 miles an hour to zero like literally overnight um without being prepared for it and not having things to replace some of the almost irreplaceable parts about this job, right? The adrenaline, the mission, the relevance of it um that's where people struggle and we talk about it um in our book on the podcast and and in um in presentations but um that's something you've got a really healthy balance going Doug and I think it's a great model for those who are all in which like you said nothing wrong with being all in on the job but if it's what all you're eating sleeping breathing 247 at some point that that's going to show up in a way that's um is going to be difficult. So thanks for putting the spotlight on that.

SPEAKER_05 43:59

It's been great to have you here Doug today I wondered is there anything else that we didn't cover or any other nugget of wisdom that you'd like to just put out there for people listening um no I mean uh I I think to to you know kind of summarize is is you know have a life outside the job um and uh you know find what works for you um you know and and seek professional help uh you know that that's another thing that that uh you know is is uh you know kind of almost taboo still you know in in uh um you know another another shift that's happening right now is you know people have accepted that you know yeah people are gonna you know seek professional help it's not a sign of weakness uh you know if if uh you know we're doing these things with the the you know the military and and um you know uh especially you know look at at you know some of the the special operations forces who have you know staff psychologists because they've found that uh you know it increases readiness it increases preparedness it increases mission success um you know that that's okay for us too uh you know if if we're going to uh you know look at at uh you know the military and and you know elite forces uh and and they get professional help uh you know it's okay for police and fire and and ems to to also do that excellent Doug where can people find you any uh website social channels you want to share uh yeah I mean I'm I'm on LinkedIn Douglas Hexel um I I uh I do have a an Instagram and and Facebook uh rescue med ny not not extremely active on there uh you know occasionally post when I'm you know speaking at conferences when I remember to you know take pictures and whatnot well it's been absolutely fantastic speaking with you um you really have an incredible skill set and um you know across the board it's just it's great to hear your perspective on all this and see how it all blends together and thanks for being with us we appreciate you thank you thanks for your time we'll see you on the circuit yeah sounds good remember to like and subscribe YouTube we're at responder resilience Facebook we're responder TV LinkedIn Apple Podcasts and Spotify and our website is respondertv.com until the next time stay safe be kind to yourself take care of