S6 E45 911 Dispatcher PTSD And Mental Health: Dr. Michelle Lilly, Clinical Psychologist

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Many 911 telecommunicators are working 10, 12, upwards of 18-hour shifts. I don't know that I fully recognized how stressful this job could be until I walked into a 911 center. I'm constantly talking about self-compassion and helping people develop the ability to do short self-compassion breaks. You kind of get on this cortisol adrenaline way that you're never really able to get off of until you're completely depleted and at the end of your shift. But every single first responder you've ever worked with is they go into this job with the most noblest of intentions, which is to save lives. I can't tell you how many times I've worked with dispatchers and they say, well, I'm just a dispatcher. And I'm like, uh uh, nope, no J word, right?

Voiceover 0:46

Welcome to Respond Resilience, along with Dr. Stacey Raymond. I'm David Daschinger. No lights, no sirens, no closure. Just the worst moment of someone's life and then the next call. 911 telecommunicators carry PTSD, physical health fallout, and moral injury at rates most people never even hear about. They rarely ask for help, and Dr. Michelle Lilly has spent her career researching, treating, and training the people beneath the headset. And she knows what it takes to survive it. So today, Dr. Lilly's going to answer our call. This is Responder Resilience. This episode is brought to you by Fight Camp, real training on your schedule. Head to joinfightcamp.com/slash R R and use code Resilience for 10% off. There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's called Crackle. Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop. Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com. Remember to like and subscribe YouTube Responder TV or on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. And our website is respondertv.com. We'll be right back to speak with Dr. Lilly right after this. Ask a first responder who they are. And you're likely to hear I am a police officer. I am a firefighter. I am a personal doctor. I am a 911 communications operator. I do this work. Ask a clinician why they work with first responders. And they may say, No, I'm thinking join us and take into closer where work. mental health, wellness, and leadership are prioritized, not whispered about, where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone. Welcome to responder results. We shine a spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality Let's celebrate how the windows that come from the credit of those commands. We understand the culture under the trust. and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole. With your host, Retirement David Daphne, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Ruff, LCSW EMT. Our guest today is Dr. Michelle Lilly. She's a professor of clinical psychology and clinical psychologist practicing in the U.S. Early in her career, she began research with emergency telecommunicators and continues to focus on this understudied population. Dr. Lilly's research on mental and physical health for first responders has been used in legislative efforts to enhance services available to this critical population in the U.S. and abroad. She delivers training on the topics of PTSD, stress management, and resilience for public safety, corporate, and nonprofit audiences across the globe. Dr. Lily, warm welcome to Respond to Resilience.

SPEAKER_05 3:47

Thank you for having me. It's really an honor.

SPEAKER_07 3:50

So, uh, Michelle, let me start by asking you how does a uh trauma researcher end up in a call center, a dispatch center?

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Yeah, that's a great question. So when I was in my graduate studies at University of Michigan, I was working on a project with a faculty member uh with retired police officers. Um they were out of Detroit and um they kind of reminded me of my dad. My dad's a Vietnam veteran, Marine Corps. Uh, and so I really enjoyed working with this population. Uh when I got to NIU as a faculty member, I had a non-traditional undergrad working in my lab. Her name was Heather Pierce. Uh, and she was uh about seven years back to school um after or had had been out of school for about seven years and then came back. Uh and we were kind of talking about police officers, and I'll be honest, we were kind of like, oh, police officers are, you know, just a crusty bunch, they're crabby all the time, you know, whatever. And then she said, Hey, my husband's a police officer. And I said, Oh, uh, and so uh we kind of talked about the the job and the difficulties, and then the next day she came back and said, I don't know that I ever mentioned this, but I was a non-mo dispatcher for seven years before I returned to school. Uh and so then she started telling me about the job and I was floored. I don't think I think most people in the general population have no idea what's actually happening in a 911 center. The stresses, the overstimulation, the trauma. Uh, it is uh a very, very stressful and difficult place to work. Uh and then she said, Hey, by the way, I did a search and I didn't find a single article on mental or physical health in 911. Uh, so we leveraged her connections uh and in 2012 published the first paper on PTSD and 911 dispatchers. I really did think it'd probably be maybe a kind of cool project. I enjoyed working with the group with the population. Uh, I got invited to present at um APCO, which is a big 911 organization, in August of that year. Uh, and it became immediately clear that the industry was not going to let me go, that they were going to um kind of come to me with lots of other questions and difficulties, things that needed to be uh recorded and published. Uh there the training needs were extensive, uh, the intervention needs were extensive. And so I've just never, never left.

Voiceover 6:08

We know how important it is to shed light on what this population faces as a profession. Um one of the ways that we do that is um through sharing information with clinicians. So the question I'd like to ask you is what do clinicians know about this job that they may not already know?

SPEAKER_05 6:28

Oh gosh, yeah, I could I could talk about that all day long. Um, you know, I think uh people don't uh fully recognize just the unbelievable cumulative exposure that people have to distress and trauma in this job. Uh as you mentioned in the intro, it's you call you might receive one of the worst calls of your life and you have to hang up, and five seconds later you might be answering the next call. Uh you might be handling calls one minute where somebody's calling and people really do call 911 and ask what time it is, or call 911 and talk about the neighbor's dog barking. Uh so you never know what's going to happen when the when the phone is ringing. Uh you might be picking it up, and probably the majority of calls are actually non-emergent calls, uh, at least depending on where you work. Uh and so you but you but you never know uh because you might pick up the phone a second later and um it's a it's a really horrifying call with somebody who's highly distressed, uh whose life is in peril. Uh you might be handling a suicidal caller or an officer-involved shooting. Uh, so I think just the variability and lack of predictability is is really, really high. Uh, and just that uh inability to decompress between calls often. Uh so most 911 centers, like most first responder organizations at this point are very understaffed. Uh and so oftentimes you you can't step away. Uh, where sometimes in field responders, not always, uh, but there's some kind of natural built-in ability to debrief with the people around you, get some social support, kind of talk through what happened before you're on to the next call. So uh it is has some unique characteristics that really set it apart from other first responder populations.

SPEAKER_06 8:09

The call happens at 2 a.m. For a first responder, that's not where it ends. They drive home with it, sit in the driveway with it, protect their family from it. Carry it back to work the next shift because that's the job. Most will never say a word unless someone knows their world, knows how to listen, and can build their trust. Helping the Helpers, the guide to supporting first responder mental wellness, was written by the team behind the Responder Resilience Podcast. This book is perfect for clinicians, peer support, chaplains, leaders, responders, and their families. Be the resource they can count on. Order your copy on Amazon today.

SPEAKER_07 9:11

So if you could just walk us through what would a shift um be like for a uh 911 operator and what does that do to the nervous system?

SPEAKER_05 9:21

Oh gosh, yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, it will vary uh extensively depending on what 911 center you work in. So I work with some 911 centers that are uh more rural, they're kind of further outside Chicago, and uh they might handle, they might have a shift where they handle almost zero um kind of true emergency calls. Uh it might be actually relatively boring, um, uh either overnight or sometimes even during the day. It can be not as active, depending on again where you are working as a telecommunicator. Um, all the way to, I've worked with agencies in Chicago, in California, where you literally have zero moments between your calls. So you handle a call, you hang it up, you might do some um some paperwork involved with it, you might be having to manage something else before you run to the next call. So it can vary widely between um less um likelihood of kind of ongoing, kind of persistent calls um all the way up to you're you're busy every minute of your shift. Um it is rare, I've seen, especially right now with all the understaffing for people to work uh an eight-hour shift. That there are very few organizations that are operating under that um that format right now. Um many 911 telecommunicators are working 10, 12, um, upwards of 18-hour shifts. Um, I work with one organization where it is not uncommon for people to work an 18-hour shift. Um, and you can only imagine how incredibly exhausted you are by the end of that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 10:54

Um I just imagine to do with the um the energy that's like coursing through the body at any one moment and now you're sitting. You're just you're just sitting and you're contained. So tell us about like what's going on in the body and what what did you know about that?

SPEAKER_05 11:12

Yeah, you know, I think we we certainly know that people are um kind of constantly riding that kind of a cortisol dump, right? So like you're you're experiencing a difficult call and your cortisol's up here and you're kind of overstimulated, and then your your system is having to try to bring you back down. Uh, and you might be jumping into the absolute next call. Uh, and so you you kind of get on this um kind of cortisol adrenaline wave that you're never really able to get off of until you're completely depleted and at the end of your shift. So that's kind of like the the more kind of trauma fireflight response. But on top of that, uh kind of getting back to something you said in terms of being antsy, these folks are at a console plugged in for all of these hours. Yeah. Uh it is a very sedentary job. There's little opportunity to walk walk away. Uh the lights, it is a very overstimulating environment. Every time I walk in there, I'm like, there's so many lights and sleeping zones and all these other things. And I'm always like, is somebody gonna answer that? Um, and so it is very overstimulating. And then on top of it all, everybody's in a room together for very long periods of time. And, you know, we don't always love all of our coworkers, right? Or, you know, just the fact that at any one minute you could be handling something and everybody else in the room can evaluate exactly how you're performing is a whole nother added layer of stress. Sure. Uh and so between the sedentary nature, the kind of chronic um kind of fight or flight response, uh, and all these other physiological demands, it is it is an incredibly depleting job.

Voiceover 12:51

So what do you uh what do you recommend for mental health professionals, clinicians who like to work with this population and um in terms of like more immersive experience? We talk about ride-alongs with the police department, with the fire department. What would you recommend to someone who wants to get more involved in understanding this population?

SPEAKER_05 13:13

Yeah, I've I've never worked with a 911 agency that wouldn't allow people to come in and do a sit-along. Uh, so sit-alongs are really, really informative. Uh and I think that's a really great immersive experience where people can sometimes um really start to learn uh what it's like to just sit at that console for hours on end and just wait. You're just kind of waiting to see if something really awful comes in. Uh and uh so I think that that's a really, really profound experience that it I don't know that I again fully recognized how stressful this job could be until I walked into an I11 center. Uh and I uh I myself was pretty overwhelmed pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_07 13:56

I didn't mention this to you um prior to us starting the recording, but my dad was a police officer, and then he um he decided to become a 911 dispatcher toward the end of his career, and he ended his career as a 911 dispatcher because he had a heart attack um when he was 51. And, you know, he definitely struggled with uh health issues, you know, blood pressure, cholesterol, weight. Um you know, can you comment on, you know, something that I've read about, which is that because of the sedentary job and perhaps the cortisol dump that you've been talking about, is that there's a um a serious issue of obesity for 911 telecommunicators. Can you comment on that?

SPEAKER_05 14:41

Yeah, I published a study I want to say it was in 2014, but don't quote me on that. Um, and we asked people to self-report from the 911 industry, a large sample from across the country, their height and weight. And then we calculated BMI. Now, BMI is not a perfect indicator of health, but it's pretty pretty good. Um, people are also very good at reporting their height, not so much their weight. Um, and so uh we think probably people did underestimate their weight, which is very common. Um, but even with those kind of limitations in the methodology, we found that 83% of Dell telecommunicators were either overweight and obese. Um, and 53% alone were obese. Now we don't live in the healthiest of cultures at the time that was published. Uh the national rate of obesity was about 35%, but we're still talking about one and a half times the standard rate. Um, in that same paper, I uh published that uh telecommunicators were reporting an average of 17 different physical health symptoms in the last month alone. So headaches, backaches, eye strain, um uh kind of sweating responses, shaking hands, um, all of these things. So we know that the job is really physically affecting people. I think part of it is that sedentary nature, part of it is just the kind of chronic exposure. Uh, but many 911 centers are pretty dark. Uh, and uh so the the lighting can cause eye strain. Uh there's, you know, the um techno stress and overstimulation with all the different screens that you're trying to um manage at the same time. Uh and uh you you oftentimes can't leave your console. Uh and so the availability to go get, you know, for example, a fresh meal uh is really low. So a lot of people start using convenience food, they grab, you know, what's quick and easy, and when you can actually eat can be a real problem because you might go through a period for three, four hours where you're getting slammed, and then by the time you finally eat, you're you're starving and you're gonna grab whatever's closest to you. Right. Uh and then some people kind of conversely work with some individuals that they can't get up, they can't leave the console, and they're they're tired and they're kind of bored at times. Um, and you know, when people are tired and bored, sometimes they they eat. Um, yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of different factors that I think contribute to this.

Voiceover 17:02

Most people work out to look better. You work out because lives depend on it, but the stress doesn't clock out when you do. The calls follow you home. And most workouts weren't built for any of that. Boxing was. Fight camp builds endurance, reaction time, and real-world movement and tracks every punch so you see progress, not gets at it. Real training in your home on your schedule. You don't just finish workouts, you get better. Head to fightcamp.com slash RR and use code RESILIIENTE for 10% off. Fight Camp, real training on your schedule. Where I worked, it was a little bit of a unique situation in that the dispatch at the time was in the fire headquarters, and so the dispatcher had their own little cubicle with uh a Murphy bed. And so for those that did the 24-hour shifts on the weekends, not only would they spend 24 hours in this small office, but they also slept in there, you know, just waiting for the phone to ring. So I'm sure it must also impact sleep when you're not only working overnights, but you know, bleeding over into your off time.

SPEAKER_05 18:13

Oh, sleep is horrible. You know, and it's I think I I would say that uniformly across all first responders, I have I have a couple of papers on sleep in first responders as well, and it's just uniformly poor. Uh I used to be quite honestly one of those people who's like, you can work overnights and still get adequate sleep. You just need to prioritize it. Uh, and then the more that I actually spent time in fire stations, police stations, and 911 centers, I'm like, oh yeah, no, you can't get good sleep here. Like, especially if you have like children, you know, you come home and you know, you're you can sleep, but you're then sacrificing some of the only time that you might spend with your family. So sleep is sleep is uh a major issue um in across all um 911 or all first respond industries, but um especially 911 as well.

Voiceover 19:02

Well, another topic that we've talked about a lot and and very much uh recently a few episodes ago is moral injury. Um we talk about what that looks like for firefighters, EMS, law enforcement. What does it look like in the world of 911?

SPEAKER_05 19:18

Yeah, there's a it's really interesting because just as when I started going getting into 911, people would say, well, they can't have PTSD because they're on scene. And I'm like, nay, nay, that's not that's not true. Um at first when I started talking about moral injury, people thought, well, how, right? Again, they're not there and they're not perpetrating, um, they're not actually witnessing stuff. Um, but I've worked with a lot of 911 dispatchers who have um moral injury. So uh sometimes it's failing to be able to prevent um atrocity, uh, being unable to save a life. Um sometimes there's new and shifting protocols and what you can send responders to. So you might have a caller uh begging you to send help and you can't. You either aren't staffed or that's not what your your protocol or your procedures um indicate. Uh there's uh you know, it's not uncommon, especially in smaller areas, for people to dispatch calls for their family members, right? So there can be all these different ways in which uh moral injury can come up. And, you know, what I find about just about every single first responder we've ever worked with is they go into this job with the most noblest of intentions, which is to save lives. And they carry that value, and that value keeps them dedicated in really challenging times. And so if you're kind of going in with that core strong value of being the help maybe that you never got yourself, losing a life is incredibly distressing. So it you certainly don't need to be on scene for it to affect you.

SPEAKER_07 20:53

You know, Michelle, one of my pet peeves uh when I run debriefs is when if I show up and they they forgot about the dispatchers. Um so if you could call like why is that? Why why are uh telecommunicators considered like the uh you know the redheaded stepchild of public safety? Why is that?

SPEAKER_05 21:16

I if if I wish I had an answer to that. Um I I don't know. I you know, I came when I came into this uh work, people would say, uh, you know, for the red-headed stepchat, no one cares about us, nobody, we're like essentially glorified secretaries. Uh and glorified, you know, people, yeah, people weren't thinking about their mental and physical health. Um so again, it wasn't until 2012 that the first paper came out on on PTSD. And again, even then, people were like, well, they can't have PTSD because they're not there.

SPEAKER_07 21:46

Uh and so I don't know, you know, I am not maybe because they're just not present, they're not they're not a part of the on scene action. So they they kind of get dismissed. Yeah, they do. It's really unfortunate.

SPEAKER_05 22:02

It is. Yeah. And I, you know, I've worked with agencies, um, municipalities where there's a lot of recognition for their 911, and that's amazing. I work with other agencies where it's like, who? Like who answered my call? Uh and it it varies widely. Uh, and I don't, I don't, I don't know why. Um again, I don't know if it's because you're not on scene, you're not. I've had a number of people who are not um dispatchers who say, well, they're not risking their lives like we are, right? And I'm like, oh no.

SPEAKER_07 22:36

Well, but they're stuck with all these health issues because they have a sedentary job and it's you know, in some places it's one call after another. Do you think that that attitude stands as a barrier or part of the barrier for why telecommunicators might not ask for help? Like, well, I'm just a phone answerer, you know. I'm just the one who I'm the first, first responder, but I'm not on scene. Do you think they actually dismiss their own stress?

SPEAKER_05 23:01

100%. I I can't tell you how many times I've worked with dispatchers and they say, Well, I'm just a dispatcher. And I'm like, uh uh, no, no J-word, right? Uh so I was just uh giving a training last week in Philadelphia and people were going all around the room, they're like, Well, I've just been at dispatcher for whatever, or um, you know, in the room we had people who were on training officers or more on the admin level. And so you get to the frontline folks and they'd be like, Well, I'm just a dispatcher. And I'm like, we are not using that word in this room uh because what you sacrifice is unbelievable. Um just sacrificing the time with your family and your friends and your sleep and your health and your mental health, uh, and then to kind of be treated as the uh kind of the second thought is um, I think a huge barrier for people fully recognizing the ways in which they might be impacted by the job.

Voiceover 23:56

I'd like to touch on technology and just the way the industry is moving and the challenges involved. So technology is kind of rapidly advancing almost exponentially. That's got to have an effect on this profession. But what are you seeing as um some of the central challenges that are facing 911 telecommunicators?

SPEAKER_05 24:15

Yeah, well, you know, they've been talking about NG911, next generation 911, ever since I started working with the industry. And so NG911 would bring, you know, video to 911 centers. And so uh dispatchers can now um see what is what is happening, either through you know, street level cameras or people's cell phones. Um, so that has been an ongoing debate. Uh so a lot of dispatchers will say, I will retire before you force me to do that. Like I didn't, I didn't become a field responder because I don't want to see it. Uh and so that has caused a lot of fear and anxiety is this idea that they're gonna be forced to use NG911 technology. Uh, so that's that's one. Um, of course, AI um is another that's coming up. Uh some people worry that their job is going to be taken by AI. Uh so there might be some really great benefits of AI in 911 centers, for example, being able to divert non-emergency calls. And so uh you're not handling all that volume of calls where you know the uh true skills of an emergency dispatcher is not needed. Uh so there could be benefits, but you know, there's there's a lot of anxiety out there. Uh and what I see right now when I go into 911 centers is what I call, I don't know if there's a word for this, but I call it technological bloat. Um, so they have there's CAD system, and then they're just adding this, and then they're adding this, and now you're adding this, and the multitasking demands are are huge. Uh, and these systems aren't talking to each other. Um, but as you mentioned, David, you know, the uh technology is advancing at such an exponential rate that I I truly believe that this is all going to get streamlined at some point, and these systems will be talking to each other in ways that are maybe less that are more efficient. Um but right now it just feels like, okay, now I have to engage with this technology and this one and this one and this one, all while maybe managing somebody on the phone who's screaming or in peril or is trying to perform CPR. So it is um it is a very difficult time from a technology standpoint, I believe, to be a dispatcher.

Voiceover 26:19

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SPEAKER_07 26:35

So for those really busy um call centers, is there some hack that you can offer, like you know, in that 30 seconds between calls, like for them to help with decompressing or helping them build some resilience? Like what what can you suggest for any of the telecommunicators that are listening to us?

SPEAKER_05 26:56

Yeah, 100%. So I'm gonna offer a few things, but what I'm also gonna say is that um, you know, if there was just one little like kind of pill or exercise I could give people without any practicing would work, that'd be amazing. And I'd be a billionaire, right? And I would not be on a yacht, not talking to you guys. No, no offense. Um but you know, I think uh a lot of what I've been trying to teach 901 is some basic mindfulness skills. Uh so we know that taking just three cleansing breaths, if you've practiced it, can be incredibly helpful in bringing down your physiology, recentering you, um making you feel um, you know, kind of more grounded in the in the moment. Uh and you know, we know that those very simple practices uh that come from the mindfulness field are incredibly effective. You can actually decrease your heart rate while you're exercising if you're well practicing this stuff. So uh I'm trying uh constantly trying to get 901 to engage with some of these simple activities and it's simple but effective, and you can do it right at your console. Uh I talk a lot about self-compassion. So uh self-compassion is just compassion directed inward and recognizing um that we are part of kind of the human suffering experience and um kind of forgiving ourselves for moments where maybe we aren't performing exactly how we would like. Uh and uh I find that dispatchers in particular tend to be kind of low in self-compassion. Uh, they tend to be very um hard on themselves for making small mistakes, which makes sense, you know, because small mistakes could have very um catastrophic outcomes for uh for callers. Uh so uh and a lot of dispatchers come from um kind of family histories where there might be maltreatment or other types of things. We know that when folks come out of those environments, they tend to have lower self-compassion. Uh, and so I'm uh kind of constantly talking about self-compassion uh and helping people develop the ability to do short self-compassion breaks. Uh, you can kind of extend love and kindness to yourself and a very short amount of time between calls. And so uh those are the the big ones for me. Um, and then the other one that I'm leaning on into a lot lately is radical acceptance uh and uh kind of learning how to kind of radically accept things in the moment as they are, uh, so you can make more well-reasoned choices and how to move forward. So um most of those come from the um kind of Eastern traditions um from Buddhism and from dialectical behavior therapy, uh, but I think they translate very well into these environments.

Voiceover 29:29

Oh we have an ongoing series called The Clinician's Guide. And for that perspective, for the clinician's perspective, what what would you say to someone who wants to work with this population and just wants to build cultural fluency, cultural awareness, you know, get into that first session and know how to approach delivering mental health care to someone who does this job?

SPEAKER_05 29:52

Yeah, yeah. As we talked a little bit earlier, I think doing sit alongs is is critically important. Um, I just think it is such an eye-opening experience and very important. Um, you know, there's a lot of you know, state level and national level conferences that you can uh be a fly in the wall for. So um most states at some point during the year have a um have a state level conference. Most of them are in the fall, so coming up in October uh or in the spring. Uh so just here in Illinois, for example, there is a yearly conference. Um it's right in the middle of the state. So people from all over can go. And um, you know, paying a big registration fee for a conference is never that fun. Um, but I think those can be really uh incredibly informative too. Uh just sitting in some sessions, listening to people's concerns. Uh many 911 uh uh uh conferences at this point have a wellness track uh that has certainly increased in the last decade. And so being able to sit in and hear what people are saying about their mental health, about what things that they've tried, about the barriers, I think can also be incredibly transformative.

SPEAKER_07 31:00

Is there anything, uh Michelle, that you think that we uh have left out, any other nuggets of wisdom that we didn't tap into?

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Yeah. No, I I I don't think so. I think there's so many challenges to this occupation. Again, one just not being fully recognized uh by um by other areas of the industry. I think we need to be doing a lot more celebration of the incredibly hard work that these uh that these individuals do. Um and the other thing that I would just kind of throw out there because it is something I'm I'm asked about a lot and talk about a lot, is the lack of closure. Uh so one of the things that I think um might sometimes benefit field responders is they often know what happened, um, or they can see kind of like uh more of the end of what is has happened on a call, uh call for service. Um and sometimes it's easier for them to kind of follow up as well, or they might kind of hear through the grapevine. Predominant telecommunicators, sometimes they hang up the phone and they might have no idea what ended up happening. Um, and given the volume of calls, they can't go back and individually check on, you know, every single caller. And you know, we just know from a brain perspective that when we don't know the outcome of something, uh it makes us makes it harder for our brain to process it, to make meaning of it.

SPEAKER_07 32:17

Um hard to go on to the next thing because you haven't gotten a closure on the first thing.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

100%. Yeah. And and you know, like you know, it's hard to uh to know what happened. And you know, if you have kind of developed a more maybe negative mindset about the world and people and how how things are, you're gonna fill it in with more negative details as to what happens. So you might be then more likely to be thinking that all these individuals who are calling in are, you know, in in in rough shape, right? That many of them have perished. And um, sometimes people call 911. I mean, I think feel like I'd be one of I don't deal with blood well and I don't deal with kid injuries well. So like I could imagine a scenario in which like my kid got cut and I'd call and be like, oh my god, what's happening? Right. And it's really not that bad, right? Uh so I think right um dispatchers when they don't have access to that information, I think sometimes they fill in more negative details. Um right.

SPEAKER_07 33:17

Well, there is the natural negativity bias of the brain, anyway. We we tend to migrate toward the the negative outcome or hold on to that pot that being a possibility. Yeah, unfortunately, that's just the way our brain is it it evolved.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

Yep, a hundred percent. So I think that that's one of the other big challenges.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Not everyone is meant to walk this path, and that's okay. But for those who feel the call, for those who read these words and feel not just curiosity but conviction, know this. By the time a first responder sits across from you, they've likely exhausted every internal resource they have. This isn't a routine appointment, it's their 911 call. I don't know how much longer I can do this job. You won't hear sirens, but the urgency is real. If you choose to take that call, understand what it means to show up, to stay steady, and to carry the weight of someone who spent a career doing the same for others. This is where the work begins. Be the resource they can count on. Order your copy of Helping the Helpers Today on Amazon, and for bulk orders, email us at info at respondertv.com.

Voiceover 34:37

What kinds of modalities or resources are available to these call centers that actually help telecommunicators decompress or just de-stress during a shift?

SPEAKER_05 34:49

Yeah, I you know, I and I'm not just saying this because I go around doing training, I promise. Um, but I think uh just being really proactive and providing as much training for folks as you can, starting really early in their career. So uh sometimes I'm not seeing people in training or in practice until they've already been in the career for 15, 20, 25 years and they're really struggling. I think if we can get people early in their career and help teach them coping mechanisms and kind of approach behaviors, I think we can increase the their longevity uh in the career and um help them learn from an early starting point how to manage the stressors of this job. Uh sometimes people just kind of learn trial by fire. Uh and I and by then sometimes it's it's it's harder to address what has come up for you. Um so I think training is a big one starting early and and ongoing throughout the career. Uh something that I'm seeing work uh very well. And again, I'm not just saying this because I'm a clinician that works on retainer with some agencies. However, um there can be um some distrust of EAPs, employee assistance programs, um, for any number of reasons. Um sometimes it's because people have questions about the confidentiality of them. Um, sometimes it's because the EAP maybe is not the best or not as responsive, or you might be struggling with trauma and you get paired with somebody who has no experience with trauma. They're kind of a child psychologist, right? Um who doesn't work with trauma, right? Um so what I'm seeing up here, at least in and around the area that I'm in, is uh agencies partnering with somebody in the community who's on retainer. Uh so I'm on retainer with a number of agencies, and the way it works is uh people just reach out to me directly. Uh, and the agency has not provided any information on when I meet with people, who I meet with, dates of service, topics covered, unless, of course, there are, you know, um risk concerns um or criminal behavior is offered in the agreement to. Uh and uh what I have found is that agencies, once they start working with somebody who is culturally competent and understands the job and if it's a good experience, many start calling um and uh to talk about the job, talk about how it's impacting their family. Uh and it is uh I think just the feeling of confidentiality, the increased um sense of confidentiality, and then working with somebody who really understands the job uh really reduces that barrier to getting help. So uh a lot of the agencies that I work with have had really great um levels of use. So uh I would say anywhere between um probably hovering around 75% of the sessions that I'm retained for get used every month. Um, and depending on what's going on, sometimes more. Uh so it's um it's been a pretty effective. I I see it as a very solid alternative to um some of those more traditional EAPs or just a list of resources. Uh and then my agreement with them is that um I might not be able to set up a session within 48 hours, but I will get back to you within 48 hours. Right. Uh so you're not just sitting around waiting to see if somebody from the EAP is ever gonna call you back. Right.

Voiceover 38:07

This has been a really insightful conversation and uh we've covered a lot of stuff that uh we we really needed to cover. It's been a while since we've touched on 911 telecommunicators. So um still great for you to be here, Sarah, this time and your expertise. And please share with us where people can find you and any if you have any uh events coming up that you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_05 38:30

Yeah, I'm all over the place. So um yeah, I'm currently um working on an um online course uh for uh uh for clinicians to build cultural competency to working with first responders. Um that's kind of in development. Uh I'll be at the um the Gold Flame conference uh in Nashville in about a month. Uh I'm I'm kind of around all the time um and going to different trainings and speaking at conferences. Um my website is um www.lilly dash consulting.com. Um all the information on there about kind of trainings that I offer and other things that I do are can be found on that webpage, as well as contact information. Uh I try to, we were kind of um the audience will not know this, but we're talking about social media before we before we started recording this, and I'm very touching social media. I try to I try to tap in there a lot, but it it sometimes becomes very overwhelming for me. Um, but you can find me on on LinkedIn and um Lily Counseling and Consultation is also on Facebook as well.

SPEAKER_07 39:36

I I just wanted to um show some appreciation for your contribution to research on 911 operators, because that door really needed to be opened. I know when I've done some research on writing some of my um part of one of my books, I really couldn't find a whole lot, you know, until recently on uh 911 telecommunicators. So I just want to thank you for doing research on them, especially the PTSD aspect.

unknown 40:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:07

Well, I I I I appreciate your appreciation. I, you know, we say that um I kind of uh a little bit fell into the work, um, but it's been probably the most professionally and personally rewarding work that I've done.

SPEAKER_07 40:19

So I'm glad I'm glad it was uh it was a happy mistake then. Yeah, it's a happy mistake. Yeah.

Voiceover 40:26

Great. Well, Michelle, thanks so much for being with us and talking with us, and we wish you continued success with all your work.

SPEAKER_05 40:33

Thank you.

Voiceover 40:35

Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube respond resilience. We're on Facebook, Responder TV. You can also find us on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify, and our website is respondertv.com. Till the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care.