S6 E27 The Case for Telling the Story with Guest Jerri Williams

TV Fiction Versus Real Service

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What most people know about law enforcement, about the FBI, about first responders, they get it from TV shows. Most of our families have really no idea what we did on a daily basis. If you had the opportunity to know more about your great grandparent, or maybe even your father or mother, would you like that opportunity? I have been able to have some unbelievable episodes where people share their most vulnerable insights about what it was like to do the job. But sometimes it's just acknowledging that it did a good thing. So I knew about being in front of a camera and behind a microphone. So I started a podcast.

Voiceover 0:56

Jerry Williams built her career in an era when the FBI looked very different, and she helped change that one case at a time. Jerry Williams didn't walk away quietly. She picked up the microphone, and now she's changing something else: the narrative. Because the FBI you see on TV is not the FBI she served. Her book, FBI Myths and Misconceptions, is her open invitation to discover the real one. And now her podcast, FBI Case File Review, has surpassed 10 million downloads. That is incredible. And she's just getting started. She also won the FBI's G Man Honors Distinguished Service Award for sharing the FBI stories. And today we're talking about something every first responder needs to hear: why your story matters, why telling it protects the profession, and why silence is a real threat to your legacy. This episode is brought to you by Fight Camp, real training on your schedule. Head to jointfightcamp.com/slash R and use code RR10 for 10% off. This episode is brought to you by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Because even the best of us face unexpected challenges. They've got the tools, the training, and the resources to keep you strong, safe, and resilient. Equip yourself at FirstresponderCenter.org. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. We'll be right back to speak with Jerry after this. Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer. I am a firefighter. I am a paraletic. I am a 911 communications operator. Not I do this work, but I am this job. Ask a clinician why they work with first responders. And they may say, There's no higher calling than helping the helper. Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are prioritized, not whispered

Meet Jerry Williams And Her Why

Voiceover 2:56

about, where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone. Welcome to Responder Resilience. We shine a spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality and celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth. We understand the culture, honor the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole. With your hosts, retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomley, LCSW EMT. On this episode, our guest is Jerry Williams. She's a retired FBI agent, author, and podcaster who served 26 years in the FBI, specializing in economic fraud and corruption investigations. She's now on a mission to show the public who the FBI is and what the FBI does. January 2026 marked her 10th anniversary hosting and producing FBI Case File Review, a true crime podcast dedicated to real stories told by the agents who live them. Jerry's also authored four books, two FBI police procedurals, and two of them are nonfiction titles that debunk the misconceptions about the Bureau found in books, TV, and movies. You can learn more about that at jerrywilliams.com. Jerry, warm welcome to Respond to Resilience.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_05 4:24

So, Jerry, I'd like to start out by asking you, you know, this, your podcast goes uh back 10 years. What was the original spark for you to get started with that?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Well, really, the original spark was for me to sell crime novels. I mean, that was my intention when I retired from not just the FBI, but my post-FBI job, which all FBI agents get because you know we get to retire so early. And what I wanted to do was sell crime novels. And so I wanted to build a platform on which I could find potential readers of my books. And so a lot of people were blogging back then,

Starting A Podcast For Crime Novels

SPEAKER_00 5:05

and I thought, well, I don't want to write about writing. And I knew a lot of people. My last position at the FBI had been the spokesperson for the Philadelphia division. So I knew about you know being in front of a camera and behind a microphone. So I started a podcast. And so that was the initial reason, but that was in 2016, and my motivations uh slowly begin to change and become more of a I would say community service uh motivation.

Voiceover 5:40

That's amazing, Jerry. Like 10 years in podcasting is like, you know, a hundred years and doing anything else, and it's incredible. I I can't um give you enough credit for having that endurance, that longevity. And you've been doing it for so long. What kind of keeps you going now when people other people would have called it done?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Uh because it's well, one of the reasons it's been successful and it's grown every year. And so I feel an obligation to my listeners. But really, the main reason is I get to meet so many fascinating, you know, agents that I didn't have an opportunity to work with. I get to hear about some, you know, fascinating and exciting cases that I never got to work during my career. And so I actually am a listener of my show. I really enjoy uh the case reviews and the stories.

SPEAKER_05 6:33

So, Jerry, as you know, the public trust in law enforcement, um, it's under constant scrutiny. Um what is it about telling authentic stories that is um helpful? Why does it matter to um you know, to tell stories regarding the FBI or law enforcement that are that are actual?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, I think it's because we get to take back the narrative. You know, what most people know about law enforcement, about the FBI, about first responders, they get from TV shows. And that's the reality. You know, we like to think that everybody's watching the news, but they're not. You know, they're looking at TV shows or uh reading books, hopefully, and they're also just scrolling through social media. And so what somebody else is putting out there is

Taking Back Public Trust Narratives

SPEAKER_00 7:28

what they're seeing and what they are believing is the reality. And, you know, we need to take that back and make sure that shows like yours and like mine and so many others are giving the true side of what we do and who we are.

Voiceover 7:46

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SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, so I came up with uh 20 cliches that I see in books, TV, and movies about the FBI. And even though it's my number two cliche, it's the one that I

The Biggest FBI Cliches Explained

SPEAKER_00 10:05

talk about the most, and that is that the FBI doesn't play well with others. And you know, that came from that diehard movie where the two FBI agents walk into you know the terrorist event, and the police detective comes and says, you know, I'm in charge here, and they say, not anymore. And that happens over and over again in so many TV shows and movies and books and that it just I just want to tear my hair out, or throw a shoe at the TV set, or throw the book across the room whenever I read something like that, because you know it really is just the opposite. Uh you know, you see that every day in the cases where the FBI is working very closely with local law enforcement and you know local um state you know agencies that you know we don't come in and we have no subordinate role over you know local or state agencies and it irritates me so much because it's such a negative view.

Voiceover 11:12

Absolutely. And so if you came at it from the opposite angle, are there any shows or movies you've seen that are pretty accurate?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Uh very few. But I would definitely yeah, I would say Mindhunter, I really enjoyed that. Now that's another one of my cliches, which is that, you know, FBI profilers are out hunting down serial killers by running through alleys and dark basements, and you know, profilers are really consultants, you know, helping uh local detectives and FBI agents solve what appears to be an unsolvable case. But I love Mindhunter because they showed profilers, you know, in their true role of trying to gather as much information about what makes a criminal a criminal, and then sharing that information with law enforcement so that they may, you know, uh help them with their investigations.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

So I have to ask, what is your number one pet peeve or what is the number one misconception on your list?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Number one is that FBI profilers are chasing serial killers. And yeah, number two, which I went back and forth with, but number two would be um, you know, that we don't play well with others. You know, and I just did one of the things I do every month I take a TV show or movie and I review it, not for whether it's entertaining or good or bad, but for teachable moments about FBI policy procedures and programs. And one of the last ones I did was the Chicago TV shows, Chicago Fire, Chicago PD, and Chicago Med. And I am sure that that's one of your favorite stories, isn't it? Isn't that one of your favorite TV shows? Probably not.

Voiceover 13:00

No, it's funny. Um, you know, I I can't watch a lot of those shows, and it's rare that I can. I think the last movie that I saw that was the most accurate was Code 3 uh about EMS. And that one, um, because it shows burnout, it shows you know some of the um just the dynamics of doing that job outside of the calls that was so well done.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yeah, and and so that's why I feel it's so important because my husband and my daughters love the Chicago shows. And I have only watched one show. Well, I would say three shows because they had a crossover episode maybe a month or two ago, and it involved the FBI, and they told me about it, and so I watched all three episodes and then talked about what I saw and those teachable moments, and the the show was about um um weapons of mass destruction. So I talked about that, but I had to also talk about this, you know, FBI not playing well with others because that was a big scene, several scenes in those

When Entertainment Gets It Right

SPEAKER_00 14:02

three crossover episodes where the FBI came in and was treating people poorly and you know as if they were, you know, at um you know, a superior. And you know, we c we can't do our job if that were the way it really happens. We all need each other. And so um, yeah, that's that's why one of the things that I love to do is to push back on that narrative.

SPEAKER_05 14:28

That's really important. Um so clearly you're invested in capturing uh stories, you know, especially for the FBI. Um, how does a podcast or a book serve as a as a living archive?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Oh, absolutely it does. And I always say, and yeah, and sometimes when I when I reach out to agents and ask them to be a part of the show, every now and then I'll have an older agent say, you know, I'm not about talking about myself, or you know, I'm done with that, or you know, I I I'm not into self-promotion. And even though I usually don't push back because I have plenty of people who are interested in being on the show, you know, I do send them just a little note talking about personal legacy. And I said something to the effect of if you had the opportunity to know more about your great grandparent or your grandparent or maybe even your father or mother, would you like that opportunity? And it really hit some of them in a way that you know they're they're surprised.

Voiceover 15:39

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SPEAKER_00 16:31

Well, again, for the same reason that I mentioned, you know, most of our families have really no idea what we did on a daily basis. You know, we we didn't share while we were on the job because we wanted to shield them. You know, we did not want them to be afraid when we walked out the door. But after it's

Legacy As A Living Archive

SPEAKER_00 16:55

all over and done, I think we owe it to our families and we owe it to ourselves to acknowledge the the things, the accomplishments that we had. And to keep that inside, I think is one of the reasons that some people have a hard time separating from the job because all of that stuff is inside. And you know, some of them may go out and speak to a counselor if it gets to that point, but sometimes it's just acknowledging that you did a good thing, you know, that you had a job that was important to your community, to your country, you know, to the world, and not try to keep hiding it inside because you're afraid that somebody is going to um be traumatized by what happened when they're fascinated. I mean, we know they're fascinated. You see all these true crime TV shows and true crime books and movies and things that are out there. People are fascinated by these stories. And why should we have somebody doing a podcast? And which is fine, but why should we depend on somebody who's doing a podcast, kind of doing a, I would call a fancy book report, you know, talking about what we do when we can again have shows like this and uh you know yours and and and mine to to share that acknowledgement. And but it doesn't have to be a podcast interview, you know. It could just be a purposeful conversation with your loved one that's recorded. But it also could be a fascinating, you know, wonderful read of a book about one of the cases, one of the complex, you know, investigative uh, you know, journeys that you you went on. Uh, people love that. And I think it's a shame that some of us are are holding all of that that personal legacy, that personal knowledge, that institutional knowledge inside. And I would push back and say maybe it's even a little selfish not to recognize that you have a gift that needs to be, you know, shared.

Voiceover 19:12

You know, there's another reason I can think of, and that's when we want to have more mental health professionals who are able to work with our population, the performed they are as to what the job entails, I think the better they can build trust. We wrote a book released last September called Helping the Helpers. There's several chapters where we go into the stories of many first responders. And one that always stood out for me is uh uh with Giovanni Rocco, who was um working with the FBI and infiltrated a Mafia family. And his story for any clinician that wants to work with law enforcement and understand undercover operatives, it is, you know, I think it should be like required reading only because that world is so different than civilian world.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, I've had him on my on my podcast, you know, talking with uh him and the supervisor of the task force. He was a task force officer with the FBI. And and and that's one of the things that I really like about my show is that I have been able to have some unbelievable episodes where people share their most vulnerable um insights about what it was like to do the job, how they might have concentrated so much on the investigation that they ignored their their marriage and ended up getting a divorce. Or they didn't spend time with their kids, and that's time that they'll they'll never get back. And they do talk about that, and for the most part, not with regret, but with acknowledgement that this is how important that particular assignment or the particular job were to them. These are great stories, and I'm really spending, you know, my time trying to encourage everyone, you know, to share

Vulnerability Behind High Stakes Cases

SPEAKER_00 20:58

their story. Again, it doesn't have to be a book, you know, it certainly doesn't have to even be a podcast interview, but some way of making a notation. One of the one of the best things I ever did was, you know, when I won that FBI Agents Association's award, I realized I had never recorded my own father's story. And he was 86 at the time. And so I sat down with him for three hours and learned so much about him that I thought I already knew because he was an Air Force, uh, he was in the Air Force for 21 years, and just some of the stories that he shared were, you know, uh eye-opening and my and I I had no idea, you know, that they had occurred. And, you know, the only regret that I have is that I didn't do that for my mother, who died back in 1989 at 50 at 52. You know, I don't I don't I don't know about her wants and desires and what she, you know, you know, how she felt about being, you know, a Homemaker traveling, you know, around the world with you know her Air Force husband and family. I don't I don't have those stories. And so um I that's what I try to do when I when I try to encourage people to share their stories. If they're not gonna do it for themselves, I I encourage them to do it for their families. You know, maybe you think your kids could care less about what you did, but they will eventually. Exactly. They will eventually. And so I'm a storyteller, you know, I write um, you know, novels and fiction, but I also um am a story collector. I love to use that word instead of podcast host. I'm a story collector. Right. And uh I think it's important.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

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SPEAKER_05 23:50

Jerry, you were among the first black female agents in the FBI, and it was a different era then. So um is part of your drive to document and share stories, you know, linked to the fact that you know that there are changes in the FBI now?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Well, uh, if you had asked me that question two years ago, I would have said yes. But I don't know if if I think we're going backwards right now. Um, I think there is a need to make sure that all law enforcement agencies reflect the communities in which they serve, you know, as far as having more women and minorities and people that speak different languages, you know, on the rank. So when you go out into the community, the people feel hopefully a connection and a trust. Yes, that can be done across racial lines, but it makes people feel comfortable when they see someone that looks like them, you know, coming into their home in one of the most um crisis events of their other lives. And so uh when I came into the FBI, there were less than you know 0.5% you know African American women in the FBI. And today I think it's it's I don't even think I know it's still less than 1%. And and so active um recruitment and reaching out to people and letting them know that this is a job. The FBI is a job like no other, as the as the promotion goes, is very important to me. And a lot of times I don't need to do that actively. I can just be present and show them, you know, who I am, um, which is exactly you know what I'm talking about when the community also sees, you know, somebody that looks like them, you know, knocking on their door or coming up in an emergency vehicle vehicle, you know, when there's been an incident.

Voiceover 25:51

We'd love to have you talk a little bit about maybe one or two of the most impactful cases that you've done on the podcast and ones that kind of stick with you that revealed something kind of true, profound about the profession. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I would say the one case that um there are several, but the first one I'm gonna talk about, and I think it was episode 43. If it wasn't 43, it was 53. I've I'm gonna be posting episode 398 uh tonight. So sometimes I I get the numbers uh mixed up. But it was the poly class investigation. And if uh if you remember, poly class was a 12-year-old girl in California who was abducted out of her bedroom while she was having a sleepover with friends. And I talked to the case agent who investigated that case. And uh he was like one of the first agents who during the case review, while I was talking to him, he

Representation And Recruiting For Trust

SPEAKER_00 26:56

took me back to you know, to that time when he was investigating and talked about how, you know, he never went, he had a daughter the same age as Polly, but during this time period, you know, for two, three weeks of just trying to find her, trying to figure out what happened to her, that he wasn't sleeping, he wasn't eating, he was just constantly working, and he had a panic attack where he couldn't breathe and he couldn't, he couldn't talk, he couldn't sing, and people came into the room and were like, what happened to you? And we both cried on that episode. And I left it in. And after that, I think even more agents became uh vulnerable, felt that they could, you know, talk about, you know, the what happened to themselves. And then I had one more recently, was either this year or early in the fall, where a woman who worked child predator cases, you know, told me that she was absolutely in distress after working these cases for almost 20 some years or over 20 some years. She but whenever she made an approach to maybe getting help, you know, her supervisors would say, The first thing we're gonna do is change your job assignment. We're gonna take you off of this. And so she would immediately no, no, no, no, it's not that bad, because she wanted to continue. This was her life's works. She wanted to continue to work, you know, sex trafficking and child predator cases, but she couldn't find a way to get help. And so what she did is she worked up until her retirement and then immediately retired because she knew she was in a bad place. She was able to get help after retirement. And you know what she does today? The same thing. She's still working, you know, child predator cases, she's still working, you know, for a nonprofit trying to help children and get them in safe places. But now she could do it with the knowledge that she can get help and talk about it and you know, take an opportunity to, you know, express, you know, what her personal feelings are without having to worry about somebody's solution being to take her away from doing what she really loves. And so that case was just so important uh for me to to be able to share. And again, she had no issue whatsoever of crying and sobbing through some of the story because she had retired and she was in a place where she knew how important it was to share those feelings. And so, yeah, those are some of the the cases that um you know are very special to me, along with the ones where you you just had no idea that you know the FBI was involved in such exciting and impactful, you know, cases around the world. So it's it's a good thing, you know. I don't I don't see myself ever stopping uh doing this, even though I'm sure my husband is thinking like, I thought you were retired. Yeah, right.

Voiceover 30:10

Yeah, it's not the right word for what we call this, right? This is like chapter, you know, life 2.0, the next chapter. Yeah, absolutely. You're trained to help people heal, but first responders, they carry trauma that's buried under silence, stigma, and stress. Helping the helpers gives you the framework to connect, to speak their language, earn their trust, and actually make an impact. From the experienced team and clinicians behind the Responder Resilience

Retirement And Finding Your Next Chapter

Voiceover 30:40

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SPEAKER_05 31:17

What you shared, Jerry, those two cases, it just shows how um, you know, the human nature part of what the FBI deals with in some cases, you know, how the um agents are affected by that and they're deeply affected. And, you know, they're working with some of the most painful, you know, unsolved situations. Um, and you know, I I wonder if the public realizes that.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

No, and I that's why I love my show. Um, I concentrate more on cases so that people can get an understanding of what it's like to investigate the case. At the very end of the show, I'll ask the agents a little bit more about, you know, who they are and you know, why they join the FBI. But I like to show what happens during a case. And I love it when the agents feel comfortable enough to give us that their internal thoughts and what's going on at home. When, you know, on Thanksgiving Day they tell their wives and their families, I gotta go out and work a case. Or on Christmas Day, you know, in the middle of opening, you know, their presents with their kids, you know, they have to go and uh and work a case. And and having them share those personal stories in addition to showing us what an an investigation looks like, you know, really just makes these uh case reviews uh so worthwhile to do and for the public to be able to listen to.

Voiceover 32:46

Yeah, I think uh that's so important that you're bridging that gap because the families of first responders, like you said earlier, have no idea what we're doing most of the time. And um, you know, they're just riding along with us energetically because we're bringing some of that home, but we're not really talking about it. So you're really uh you're really filling in that that need incredibly well. You've clearly taken your existing skill set from working at that job and found a new purpose and a new mission. What what advice would you give to someone who's looking at retiring or perhaps is retired retired and just trying to find what the next thing is? What what kind of uh advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

I would definitely say if you haven't yet retired, you know, spend some time thinking about what your next adventure is and and how that might be able to happen. It may be, you know, during your last years of your job going back to school, you know, and and and taking the time to do that. Uh, it may be, you know, networking and starting to meet people. I mean, while I was still in the FBI, I started attending um Thrillerfest, uh, which is a um uh a big convention in New York every year with people who write thrillers and crime fiction and police procedurals. And so I started networking, you know, as soon as I was aware of, you know, those uh opportunities. But if you can start working on, you know, don't don't work on your next job while you're doing your your current job, but if you can start thinking about it and putting things in place, that makes for a better transition, you know, into your your next adventure. But if that doesn't happen, then you know, taking some time after retirement. So many of us retire uh and then go directly to your post-retirement job, and you know, without having a uh a time to think about what it is I really want to do, what I want to accomplish. Um, and I think again, uh, when we go back to to stories, it's just like looking at your life and and and what's not necessarily missing, but what you can do to enhance it and to create even you know a more um uh beautiful legacy. And one of the things I love to say is it's hard and very difficult to look at your life as a story when you're in the middle of living it. Yeah, but we all have our stories to tell and to share. And so um, you know, taking the time to figure out what it is you want to do, because so many just kind of rely on, well, you know, I was a first responder, a police officer, you know, so maybe I'll go into a security job. But you know, hold on, you know, maybe there's something else, you know, education or writing or acting, you know, or doing something creative that you can still use your life experiences to make you better at this next thing that you want to do. But don't automatically assume that you need to get a job and you know, security because that's what you did, you know, in in in your day job. That's all very sound advice. Thank you for sharing that. Well, that's what I did. I wanted I knew I wanted to be a crime novelist, and so um, you know, I I stuck it out and and you know, very excited to to share that I just recently, you know, got a new two-book deal with source books um to uh to uh you know do a traditional uh crime novel about uh, of course, you can guess, uh black female FBI agent uh investigating you know fraud and corruption in the Philadelphia area.

Voiceover 36:42

All right, yeah, so you should have a you should have a pretty good handle on that character.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've I've written a similar character before, but this will be a a new one. And again, when I write these stories, I just don't talk about the case. But one of the things I've learned so much from the podcast is to make sure that there is that internal story, that internal want, uh, those internal desires that we also talk about as we you know look at the investigation that is unfolding, you know, um uh between the pages.

Voiceover 37:16

Great. Well, thank you for shedding the light on that in all the ways that you do, because it's so important, as we said earlier, to kind of uh portray this work in an accurate

Where To Find Jerry And Final Thanks

Voiceover 37:25

way as opposed to what we see out there sometimes on film and TV. So, Jerry, um speaking of the book, where can people find your books that are out now and find you in the podcast and any other links you want to share?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah, well, the first place I would direct people to go to is my website, which is jerrywillions.com, and that's J-E-R-R-I-Williams.com. And you'll find my books and the podcast and also my blog post about uh reviews of TV shows and movies uh about the FBI and and and how I uh uh find teachable moments. But all my books are available, as they say, wherever books are sold. And so I I hope they'll be interested in and picking up copies of those too.

Voiceover 38:10

Fantastic. Yeah, we'll share those links out in our show notes as well. Stacey, any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_05 38:16

Well, Jerry, it was so great to meet you and I enjoyed this very it's a little bit different um interview that we had today, but um you know it's you you certainly gave us some insight into you know how the FBI is portrayed and and you know where to find better sources for it. So thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Voiceover 38:38

Yeah, and Jerry, um I've been working on a presentation that really speaks constantly about the culture of silence, which most first responders, you know, we we kind of work in that in that culture, at least we used to changing a little bit now. But the fact that you are really promoting and advocating for telling the stories and putting that out there in the world, um, I can't thank you enough. And I am so impressed with uh 10-year run doing a podcast. That's absolutely incredible. So continued success with everything you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Same to you. Thank you so much.

Voiceover 39:09

Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube, respond resilience, Facebook, responder TV. We're on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and our website is respondertv.com. Till the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself, take care of the event.