Forging FDNY’s Mental Health Model | S5 E28

SPEAKER_05 0:00

My job is to really oversee the day-to-day operations, but also the interaction between the clinical staff and the uniformed staff, right? The retirees still come around, they go out, they go into the field, they do the outreach. The clinicians and all those people first went into the firehouses, but nobody wanted to talk to them. Like I said, 15 years later, they were the same individuals in some cases who were having arguments about who had the better therapist. We took this job as first responders. We know the hazards of it, but when the hazards come from within, and then that the outward action is to take your own life, that's very unsettling for first responders. It's unsettling for anybody.

Voiceover 0:55

He was on the front lines of Ground Zero during September 11th and dedicated his life to helping fellow firefighters and their families navigate the challenges of mental health and substance abuse. And now as the deputy director of FDNY Counseling Services Unit, Drew's insights into behavioral health trends and the future of fire service wellness are invaluable. So we're gonna dive deep into the real issues facing first responders today, including trauma, best practices, and mental health support, and how we can build a stronger, healthier culture within the fire service. This episode is made possible by Circle Brain. If you're a first responder, it's time to take brain health seriously. Go to circlebrain.com to learn more because the toughest battles deserve the sharpest minds. There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's called Crackle. Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop. Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com. This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at firstrespondercenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes of guest information. We'll be right back to speak with Lieutenant K to this. In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in high stress, while responders are quietly suffering.

Voiceover 2:37

In this family, many with job-related stress, burnout, injury, street disruption, substance abuse, and relationship problems. In this family, we have helped the helpers.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

With vital information and resources, resilience strategies, and success stories of overcoming the obstacles.

SPEAKER_06 3:00

Welcome to Responder Resilience. We co-host retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Rimley, LCSW EMTV.

Voiceover 3:17

Our guest today is Drew Kane. He's a 30-year veteran of the New York City Fire Department, having served for 12 years at Engine Company 37 at Harlem. And he responded to the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, and participated in search and rescue efforts for months thereafter. This experience fueled his passion to support firefighters and their families dealing with substance abuse and mental health issues. In 2004, he joined the FDNY's counseling service unit as a peer substance abuse counselor, eventually earning his master's degree in social work, and was promoted to program director of the addiction treatment program, overseeing clinical interventions, before becoming deputy director in 2020. And now he manages operations across six sites. Lieutenant Kane responds to incidents involving line of duty deaths and natural disasters, has received the Uniform Public Service Award from the Carran Foundation twice. He lectures on topics like substance abuse of DTSD, he teaches aspiring counselors at LaGuardia Community College, and contributes to the training of firefighters nationwide. Additionally, he's a master instructor, master instructor for the IEFF, and is trained in smart techniques for stress management. LT, welcome to Respond Resilience. Thank you. Thank you for that introduction.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

So, uh Drew, you've had a remarkable journey as a firefighter, and now you're a mental health advocate. Can you share how your experience on September 11th shaped your passion for assisting firefighters and their families?

SPEAKER_05 4:50

Sure. I think at the time I nobody knew it, or at least I didn't know it, that that was going to be where I would end up, uh, you know, in the mental health field. Um but that day, obviously the devastation that day and the loss of life uh was unsurmountable. And and being there for so many days, uh, you know, going to actually refer to it as the pile. Um I I can distinctly remember somebody come up to me and ask me if I wanted a bottle of water. And I was shocked by that. And I didn't really understand it. Like, like we're we're here digging a bottle of water, and I later learned that that was that was really peer support for us. That was actually something that was sent down there by my predecessor, Frank Leto, uh, just to go see what they need. And that's how my interest got sparked. Right.

Voiceover 5:40

And so if we fast forward, uh you actually pursued a master's degree in social work and um went through a whole educational process. So how did that influence your your journey? Um kind of what what prompted you to want to get deeper into it and uh be of service in that way to the brothers and sisters?

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Sure. Well, after after that my experience uh you know, down in 9-11, down at the site, uh being back at the firehouse, um we had psychologists, we had social workers, psychiatrists that came in to the firehouse and they were looking to help. And um unfortunately it was it was too soon and nobody was really looking for that help, right? It was I I mean I'm talking like maybe December of that year, October, uh December uh after 9-11. And um but what sparked my interest was that you know we had individuals that were looking to help us in such a unique and and and genuinely unforeseen situation. So uh that program was presented by retired firefighters, or I should say those members came in with retired firefighters, and nobody wanted to talk to the psychologist. Nobody wanted to talk to any of them. However, they went up to why at the time my senior firefighters went up to the retired guy. A lot of them knew and said, you know, what the hell are you doing? Why are you bringing this guy in here? Why you bring this girl in here? So what thank God my predecessor, Frank Nina, realized they talked to the retired firefighter. And that's for us really how uh what we already had was a small uh peer program since 1990. But that's really how it expanded. And I saw that, and they started coming, then the retired guys started coming out. It's like, wow, this is interesting, and you've heard some old stories and stuff, and that kind of really sparked my interest. And then unfortunately, or fortunately, due to an injury, I ended up in a light duty position uh with the counseling unit. And I knew some people I had torn a meniscus in my knee, and it got better, and I went back to work and they approached me and they said, Would you want to work here uh for your day tours and work your night tours in the counseling unit? Uh I'm sorry, background uh in the firehouse. Day tours were in the counseling unit, night tours in the firehouse, and I did that for several years, and I just kind of fell into it. I enjoyed it, I liked it. I had a background in my own personal journey to sobriety. And and I started an addiction program, and I said, Wow, this is we need this. We need this. We need somebody from that peer-to-peer perspective in there from that. Uh and then it was suggested to me by a former director who said, you know, you you can expand your knowledge and go back to school. And that's what I ended up doing. I went back and got my master's degree in so forth, and put that together with the you know, fire ground experience, um really gave me kind of I felt awake I was able to look at a fair boots. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

I mean, who better, right? Because you've you were boots on the ground and then you you then go to school to become a therapist. I mean, I I can see how they would want to talk to you. Um so and and David and I are aware of so many uh former first responders now turned uh therapists, you know, or counselors, instructors, whatever the case may be. And I think that that's so valuable. Um the other thing idea that you just triggered in me was it's an idea that I've had for a while, but I think I may have actually heard you speak about this back in like 2018, which is the retirees coming in. And I just think that why doesn't every department, both police, fire, EMS, have their retirees come in as peer support, you know, as be but anyway, that's a whole nother discussion because they've been there, done that, they're trusted. And I think that uh first responders, it would just be so much easier for them to, you know, relate to the the ones that have gone before them and seen and done almost everything that that's still happening now.

Voiceover 9:32

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SPEAKER_04 10:16

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Voiceover 10:21

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SPEAKER_02 10:43

So back to uh a different topic, but questioning you about like your diversity of your across six is it six different uh areas within New York? Like how do you as far as the counseling unit. Right. So then how do you address that? That's a that's a huge number of people to cover.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

Yeah, I mean, as far as the clinicians, you're referring to just our membership that we serve.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, so what is your role as far as like overseeing six different uh you know counseling areas?

SPEAKER_05 11:16

So I'm I'm we have a uh structure, we have a director, we have a clinical director, and myself is the deputy director. The difference with my position now as a deputy director is I also have the mental health background and the degree. So I can kind of cross both lines. So basically, um the six sites are in different boroughs around the city. That grew from the need after 9-11, right? So 9-11, everything uh we they had the insight, the foresight to really say, hey, we need something that's a little bit more um easily accessible for our members because you know we have Manhattan, we have five boroughs, so we have these other locations. One particular location just um deals with substance abuse. But uh my my job is to really oversee the day-to-day operations, but also the interaction between the clinical staff and the uniformed staff, right? And the uniformed members that are coming in looking for uh the help.

Voiceover 12:10

How does that work? Uh if a member is seeking help, is it like kind of uh walk-in basis that you set an appointment? Like how do you coordinate that with uh shipw and and all the other uh parameters that go into it?

SPEAKER_05 12:23

Well, we try to be uh you know openly uh you know available to all different uh shifts, uh, but unfortunately right now we're limited. So we operate basically business hours, right? Eight to four. But if need be, if somebody outside that box needs to be served, we will take care of that. Um but and we also provide referrals. We understand that some of our members may not want to see somebody that's because we are connected uh with the fire department. But basically the way I describe is you you know we're kinda in the middle, the counseling unit, then you have our union, then you have our administration. The union you know is there for the for the members, right? Obviously, for their rights, and as employees, the administration kind of oversees, hey, you did something wrong, we need to uh you know enforce some code or discipline, and we're just how is that affecting the member? How is the member you know working in their environment? How is the you know part of uh social work is uh it's kind of like a biocycle social. They take the person in the environment, so that's where it's unique to have that education and look at it from that point of view because it's not just um you know, uh it's a different job. That's real though. They're first responders and they're bringing a lot of stuff home with them, yeah, uh both physically and mentally. So we try to service the population by having appointments available, getting out referrals. Uh it's become a little bit more challenging now. The further we move away from 9-11, a lot of our funding was related to 9-11. Uh and that's that's been waning lately. And quite frankly, I think I think we're about I I I might be misquoting this, but we're about a thousand members on our job that were present on 9-11. Myself included. There's not many of us left that are still active members. Uh so that that to be able to service that population, we do a lot with the retirees, and basically, uh, like you you mentioned, Doctor, the retirees still come around, they go out, they go into the field, they they do the outreach. They out there are voice, and they tell the members what what's available, and then we have to deliver. Rightfully so becoming a little a little more harder in these difficult times financially, uh to deliver. You know, deliver the the product, to keep a good product going. But uh, you know, that's part of our job, right? To to adapt and overcome. So uh it's a it's a daily struggle.

Voiceover 14:41

What what kind of uh training do the retirees get? Or to like is there any preparation for the having them go out and do that outreach?

SPEAKER_05 14:49

So basically, uh ironically, I was just looking at it. 2003, uh the New York City Fire Department put on their first peer uh training, right? And that book was developed by Frank Leto, uh a couple others, uh uh Claire Comarado, who was the clinical director at the time, and Alex Carrigan was the director, and I still have the book here today, and that in turn was the model that we used. Then we basically uh you consulted with the IAFF, and their model is strongly based on the model that was developed here uh after 9-11 in 2003. I even looked at the books and like it's very, very clear. Uh-huh. And so um, you know, if we if if it was the other way around, we'd we'd be uh you know, plagiarizing stuff, I imagine. But uh you know, we we said, okay, here it is, and that's how we train all our peers. All our peers are trained to that. Right. Um but the process of of uh selecting peers is not such an easy one sometimes. You know, some departments will do they'll put out a survey book and they'll say who in your department would you talk to? Which is great, right? And then you bring that person in and maybe an interview, or um if you do kind of an open uh roll call, let's say, or a casting call, um that can happen too. You get a cast of characters people that want to help, but may not have the the skills. So what we do currently is we just say, listen, we have our meetings once a month. Uh we have a meeting at the first Friday, one this Friday on the sixth, that's a continued education meeting. Um four times out of the year we we do continued educ education. And we we really uh put instituted that. I I did that last year because it there's so much new stuff coming out. Absolutely. Yeah, but and a lot of it is is some some of it's irrelevant. You know, there's so much stuff out there at this point. Uh-huh. Yeah. We kind of use ourselves a little bit of a clearinghouse. Uh hey, this is what we endorse, this is what we're not endorsing. And then we also keep them up on their skills. Prior to that, it was, you know, some people will come take the training, and then we wouldn't see them, so we said we we can't really do that. But our our workforce when it comes out of because we have EMS and Fire, most of our fire peers are still retired members that now have seen the older retired members come into the firehouse for the past 20 years, plus, 20 years plus, they retire and they say, Hey, I'm interested in doing this. So we we'll have them come to a meeting, kind of you know, introduce them to everybody, we'll send them out on some outreach um calls with some of our uh seasoned peers, and then we kind of sit down. Uh, how did this work out? So we we we try not to turn people away, but sometimes um we realize it may not be a skill that a skill set that they have. Right, it has to be fit. It has to be the right fit. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

As firefighters and first responders, we're brilliant at the basics. We master the art of stretching the line and we excel at being there for those who need us most. Yet even the best of us can be caught off guard. We sometimes face unexpected challenges like injury, cancer, or post-traumatic stress symptoms. But you're not alone. The First Responder Center for Excellence is geared to equip you with the tools and resources you need to stay informed and prepared. We help you focus on staying strong, safe, fit, and resilient. Optimize your performance with cutting-edge health, wellness, and space information. From fitness to nutrition, medical evaluation to behavioral health, cancer awareness to cardiac health. We've got you covered. Remember, we're stronger together. Discover more at firstrespondercenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. The First Responder Center for Excellence. Equip yourself with excellence for every call.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

So, Drew, I'm very curious, you know, given that with your firefighter history and you I know that you attend line of duty deaths. How do you cope with that? How do you deal with that? Because, you know, you've got a foot in both worlds.

SPEAKER_05 19:02

From from my own perspective, you know.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, I'm I know I'm I I should have warned you. All right. So let's uh we're gonna get up and close and personal here with Drew Kane. I should have said that.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

That's um it's interesting that you asked that because it it's it's not easy. It's not easy. Uh I I seek out my own therapy, you know, I go once a week with somebody uh which I we advocate for everybody to do that. Uh but I will say it's it's over the years I probably didn't practice the best practices like I teach people to do that, to take care of yourself. I you know, I continue a uh rigid exercise routine uh as time permits. Uh but it it it's not easy to see people that you know what they do on a daily basis. Uh we've been, unfortunately, uh had several suicides of late. Yeah. And I think those are the ones that probably hit home the most. Most right. Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, a line of duty death, we took this job as first responders, we know the hazards of it. Uh, but when the hazards come from within, correct from you know what I mean, and then that the outward action uh is to uh take your own life. That's that's yeah, very unsettling for first responders. It's unsettling for anybody. Okay, well, but you know, we're our goal is like most of our individuals, and even myself, you know, it's it's become a topic that I I research a lot and and try to and realize that there's no answer, right? There's no answer. I mean, we could put all the interventions in that are possible, and I think that's the thing that devastates people the most. And and and myself, uh, you know, I realize that as much as I and you know as David as well as uh, you know, hey, we could have done this, we could have done that. That's what we do as first responders. Every call, you think about how could you have done that better? How could you have done that door differently? How could you have laddered that building differently? You know, uh EMS, how could you have started that IV line differently or better or whatever? Um, so when when suicides occur, and and we've had some active members that have taken their lives, uh, and the services are out there. That's the thing I think people could end.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Correct. And I'm sure you're well aware of the, I believe it was 2017. There were 7,000 uh firefighters that uh responded to a survey that was done by what it was it MBC. I think it was NBC. Yeah, that was a startling survey. Yeah. So can you comment on that? Like, what did you learn from that that helped that informs you as to you know what to focus on as a mental health provider?

SPEAKER_05 21:42

I mean, I think we we referenced that survey, but we we say, you know, take that information with caution. Um we don't really know, uh, I guess we could look deeper into it, but at the time when they did that, that that was a large number, and there was a large um, I think it was like 19. something percent on that survey, 19.8%, if I remember correctly, that were suicidal ideation. Yes. We we try to make people understand what is suicidal ideation, what is sports as you know, so that I think as much as we know it's a touchy subject. It is, but yeah, it's absolutely. I mean, all the research, but then to hope that your your workforce, your members are well informed of what that is, right? So basically it's kind of like we we've all thought of suicide, right? We've all thought, well, wow, how does that affect that person? How does that affect per that person? That's not suicidal ideation, right? Correct. There's rumination, there's ideation. Suicidal ideation is is when you possibly become more obsessed with that thought, yeah. You're thinking about it, but not necessarily taking making planning. Exactly, exactly. So people get uh but even in that survey, um you know, having uh a plan, I think that was another part of that survey was was still pretty up there. Yeah, uh where people had thought about it. And I think the main thing with uh with our occupation police is uh and military it's even worse with police, yeah. Yeah, I mean their access to to firearms and stuff. Um it's it's devastating. But I think part of that is it the death that we see as first responders across the course of your career desensitizes you to death. The concept of death, right? Yeah, and it's okay, it's almost giving you permission. And then if you know, right, I think they say your firefighter is uh three times more likely to experience a suicide in their career of a coworker rather than a line of duty death, you know, so it almost makes it okay. And I think the that inward I'm not asking for help is still out there, believe it or not. Sure, right.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Well, because you guys are so hardwired to be the helpers, right? You show up on a scene, it's absolute chaos, police included, right? But the civilians don't know what to do, right? So so you go in and you take care of business, right? You reinstitute control, you put the fire out, you you get the the the uh victims in the ambulance and whatnot. But then when you have like demons in your head and you you know what to do about that, it's not really an automatic, okay, I follow these steps, you know, this is what I've learned to do. It you know, so that personality of that I know exactly what to do if there's a fire, it doesn't apply to, you know, I what to do if if I'm I'm really feeling down and I don't want to be around people and I want to drink more and I'm not sleeping. And so anyway, that's a whole nother.

SPEAKER_05 24:38

And I think that's also lends to society in general, the way we view mental health versus physical health, even when you look at insurance companies, right? I mean, the whole of it in this country has to be looked at from a different perspective. You know, you can go, I can make an appointment right now, eye doctor, dental appointment, whatever it is, and I have no, you know, right now the the there's a deficit for I I should say qualified uh therapists out there. There's a lot of people saw the uh what a hot topic. The pandemic effect. To me, it was the pandemic effect. People sat home, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

And they oh sure, it brought it brought out anxiety in people and depression, right? Because they they were isolating and they didn't have their normal routine. And so if if you want to see people fall apart, you know, like that respective too.

SPEAKER_05 25:27

But I'm also saying people we found people were staying home and they they went online and they took courses to become therapists. Oh yeah. Yeah, we see that, and and uh we've done interviews with individuals that I don't think they did anything else other than online stuff. Um there so the the the workforce of of therapists has changed over the correct couple of years, and and some positive, right? Because we have more eyes on that stuff, but some kind of negative. You know, there was years, you know, I I still had the fortunate opportunity to go back to school, you know, and I still not that I probably dating myself or aging myself, you know, but I I sat in a classroom with teachers when we did role plays and stuff, and I think that gets lost sometimes in in stuff.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

So I think that would uh uh but I think it this raises the urgent need for culturally competent therapists. David, do you want to say anything about that?

Voiceover 26:24

Well, yeah, since we're trending in that direction, we're getting ready to release the book. Uh the launch date is September. It's called The Clinician's Guide to First Responder Mental Wellness, and it's really a distillation of a clinician's guide series we did on the podcast into a book form where we're gonna address what clinicians need to know to work with the first responder population and also dive into each one of the subspecialties, whether it's fire investigator or undercover federal agents, things like that. Um, exactly for this reason, because we've recognized the need for a resource for clinicians that want to work with us, hopefully for the right reasons, and to give them something that will really give them a you know a guideline to uh what's involved, you know, what what do they need to know? That sounds awesome.

SPEAKER_05 27:13

I mean that and that's neat. That'll be awesome. Yeah, that that's definitely you know, like I always said, I said, listen, if you had a uh a tumor in your brain, you're not gonna go to a diatrist, right? You're gonna somebody who specializes in that so to go say that you know a clinician is gonna kind of be run of the mill and diet. I mean, we experience you have to also be able to have the stomach for it. Yeah, correct. Yeah, you have to know what you're gonna be hearing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's uh I think that's a long time coming, I think. But still, in in our experience, you know, just the insurance companies and all that stuff and paying for it, you know, and then it it's needs to be looked at a little bit different, but that's a a bigger picture to be able to accomplish. But it it's every little bit counts. When you when I think about sorry, but when I think about the you know, Frank Leto, he always tells the story of when the the clinicians and all those people first went into the firehouses, nobody wanted to talk to them. Like I said, oh yeah, get out of here. Right, right. You know, to you know, 15 years later, you know, they were the same individuals in some cases who were having arguments about who had the better therapist or who was making the better antidepressants. You know what I mean? So full circle. Full circle. And now we've got a huge spotlight on us for this. Yeah, and I think it's sometimes you know, you gotta watch who's coming out of the woodwork sometimes. So I'll leave it at that.

Voiceover 28:35

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SPEAKER_05 30:07

Yeah, I mean, that's interesting that you should you you asked that because we have a thing that we did uh was uh through the David Lynch Foundation was transcendental meditation.

SPEAKER_06 30:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 30:17

And it was kind of like, yeah, it's everyone kind of gets that well kind of transcendental meditation. You know, it goes back to the to the Beatles in the 60s. Yeah, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly. However, what occurred was after 9-11, uh, very, very uh influential individual, uh Bob Roth, who worked for the David Lynch Foundation, approached Saltor Cassano. At that time, he was our commissioner. Sal Cassano was an incredible individual, Vietnam vet, worked his way up, became a commissioner. We weren't ready for this, the the workforce wasn't ready for him, but he learned TF, transcendental meditation. And he loved it. Fast forward 20 years. You know, when I got into this position, 22 years, um, they they approached us and said, Would you try it? Would you would you try it? Can we reintroduce it? So we took that addiction, which is now called the addiction transition program, and we taught people who came through that program TM through a grant that we got. And the outpouring of support and it was unbelievable. Nothing like you would have thought of. Yeah, it was fantastic. Then we were able to get a little bit more additional grant, and we uh taught the individuals that come uh back for their uh what we call CFRD or EMS refreshers that come back to keep their state license up. And again, we're we're going for another grant for it because it's it had such a good um response. And people liked it. It's basically just real quick, it's it's uh a 20-minute session. Uh it there's a process of teaching it, you get taught it. It's not you're not trained in it, and it's not like train the trainer and specialized teachers that come in and teach you. It's a four-day process, but we're able to work that out with schedules. And then they ask, you know, 20 minutes a day, if you can do it twice a day, great. And the response and the effectiveness of it was something that I hadn't seen in a long time. I I think it's something that we should have in the academy because it's something that you could do. Oh, sure. Oh, it's it's such an easy and like we just said, there's a lot of stuff coming out of the woodwork, and this is this is a method that's been around for over a thousand years.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

And it's chemical free, right? Exactly. Whether it's been prescribed or you're getting it at the package store, it's chemical free.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

No chemicals, and you can do it anywhere. I I took it and it was unbelievable how you you don't think you're gonna be able to do it, but I can do it in my office in Manhattan where there's you know sirens going off trains and stuff, and you really can uh they talk about it as you know the surface of the water being choppy, and you bring yourself down underneath those waves where it's a little bit more tranquil and calm. Right. Although I will say it's it's it's proven and it's 1200 years, but we get firefighters that still think they want to do it a different way. You know, they'll say, Can we do it? Can we get this? Does it have to be four days in a row for the tree for the team itself? Yeah, it's been around for 1200 years at least, but we're gonna change firefighters have that way.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Always, so is no, what are some other um techniques that you find are effective? Um, and also maybe touch on the smart technique, if you could tell us what that is all about.

SPEAKER_05 33:27

The uh well, I will say this. The the um well, the smart technique was a thing that we had got taught up at Harvard, which it didn't really come into play. We thought it was gonna be something that we would be able to use here. Um what we're doing now though is EMDR. We're getting all our uh clinicians trained in EMDR. Good for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

I'm I'm a I'm at the advanced level of doing EMDR doing it form since uh 2007, and I have a book coming out on it's it my my focus is police, not that I don't see firefighters or or um you know animal control or dispatch or EMS or anything. I I see everybody, but I had to start somewhere. So I have a book coming out called Dump the Bucket because I find that to be the approach. Instead of let's sit and talk about our feelings and get emotional, let's just get in there and be laser focused on the worst of your calls and clear that out and dump the bucket. So that book is gonna come out uh probably by the end of this month. But yes, EMDR, I have found with first responders, is it's the go-to method of treatment for that the traumas that just get stuck and and they just keep thinking about it, they can't stop thinking about it.

SPEAKER_05 34:44

So yeah, I think that, and like I said, we we've we lost, we went through a uh uh cycle, you know, just to keep moving on after 9-11. So we lost a lot of qualified, highly qualified, uh, and experienced clinicians. Uh just they you know, they're they're they were done, you know, retirement and so forth. Yeah. So we had we had a lot of yoga clinicians in, which all are terrific, uh, but that was one training and and treatment modality that they had to have. So we're trying to get that back up and running. Um the other thing that we use, you know, in our program, on our subsidies program is we you know stick with AA, you know, the 12 steps works very well for that, works well for our population. It's something that's almost like uh you know, we're very you know, uh tangible. We you know we can almost touch it and feel it, you know, 12 steps and the big bloke and stuff like that. So something like that and EMD will work great, as well as like I said, the TM. We're getting a lot of success.

Voiceover 35:39

It's great that um you're offering these kind of tools like early on in the career. Um that's that's a game changer right there. So appreciate that. And um, you want to can talk a little more about substance abuse, the programs you have and and how you approach it at Gam Y?

SPEAKER_05 35:55

Yeah, so I mean that was really the the uh the foundation of our program. And it it really goes back to 1966. We had an individual that had a problem with substance. At that point, the you know, the inpatient facilities uh were kind of relatively new. They came about in the maybe in the 50s, AA came back in the 30s, and prior to that, people if you had a drinking problem, you went to an asylum, basically. Um and they thought you were just crazy. You know, there was no therapeutic value, there was no recovery process, there was no spiritual process. So mind, body, spirit, and that's how it started for us. And it was believing or not, it was one individual, and I always joke. If you've heard me before, you probably heard the joke, and we say, believe it or not, there was a second firefighter in New York City that had a drinking crop. And I always say that because people think, hey, you know, we like to drink, right? So all they did at the time is they put the two of them together. And and honestly, that's how the program started in 1866, and it went that way to 1973. And two individuals go into meetings, and then they hired somebody to kind of coordinate it. Then we had, I think in about 75 or 76, that same individual when Joe Paul uh unfortunately passed away not that long ago having the memorial service for him, great innovator, and he said, you know, we should have we should be able to have guys come here and work on their recovery before they go back to the firehouse. And that's what they did. So the way we approach it is a hands-on type thing. If you're willing to go to inpatient treatment, because we we still adhere to that model. I know there's a lot of other programs out there, a lot of other things, and we're not, you know, against those, but we found this one to be tried and true. You have that break in your circumstance, in your drinking, in your lifestyle, and you do that for the 28 days, right? Uh almost got reprogrammed. You know, some guys say, Oh, I'm gonna get brainwashed. I said, Well, if you came here and you're sitting down with us, you probably need a little bit of brainwashing then, you know, right? Something needs to be done. And what happened was after that they came to this program, which at the time was called the day treatment program. It's now uh morphed into the uh addiction transition for because so many other addictions, right? Sexual internet, all that kind of stuff. And then what we do is really help the individual, just like the title the name says, transition back to the firehouse, right to the EMS station. And that program is is based on AA in the 12 steps. Um, if somebody comes in and they don't want to do that, that's fine too. But that's kind of the model that we adhere to, but we're always open to other things, but we just kind of it's kind of like a mousetrap, right? We haven't found anything that's built any better than that. And uh and we're and we have a great great alumni uh quarterly. We do a gathering, we get over a hundred people come back and they talk to each other, and that's how the program grew over the years. So that that's that's and we have individual counselors, uh, some social workers, some just straight substance abuse counselors, and that's that's that's how people get a lot of the time, the foot in the door. You know, somebody will come through that program, show interest, might, and we have them come back if they decide they want to do it. So we have assigned here, and this is all through the good graces of the department, um, that are like myself. Um I'm a loan from the fire department to the counseling. And my job is to just help other firefighters, NETs and paramedics.

Voiceover 39:13

It's so interesting, um, the evolution and and how many things uh guess the original version of them or the you know the old school way of doing stuff sometimes holds up better than uh all the new innovations that that come through. So uh Stacey, any other you have any other questions for I actually have one more question.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

You know, so because uh going to the bar after a long day as a firefighter had had been such a tradition, right? Um, how do you dispel the myth that this well, this is just what we do? You know, we're firefighters. We, you know, I mean, who doesn't who doesn't drink after a hard day or after a bad call or whatever? How do you dispel those myths?

SPEAKER_05 39:55

Yeah, I I in a couple of different ways, but I think one one thing that uh has happened that I've seen in my career is um it it's it's kind of getting dispelled on its own right so we have a much healthier well informed well educated workforce right and our job as you know with the I was one of the first classes that had uh poker gear prior to that it was just to turn out co pull up boots you know the physical demands of this job I think it took it took us to a level where hey you can't go out and do that all the time and still come back and go to work right so that that was one way that they they the myth uh started to get dispelled and and I think the other thing that occurred was was the the you know family life right so we're we're big you you talk to any firefighter you know we always say how do you get a firefighter to do something how do you get you know uh their their benefits their anything you you we approach well this will be good for your family right if you tell it's just for them they they most of our guys and girls don't do it but if you tell them this is going to be beneficial for your family right so we kind of come with that angle right this the second family that's really helping you but if you're spending all your time with them how are you helping that that you you know your your home life right so I think part of that and then obviously the the um you know the different laws that came out over the years you know I remember at the beginning when I started doing this you know DWIs were like not they were you know gave me a DWI you know you don't see that as much um the other side of that too is you know guys if we're into we take Uber now right so some of them some of them can actually drink more because they can take Uber. Yes but I think the the healthy uh if one thing overall I'd say the healthy lifestyle right the healthy lifestyle that that that that uh you know most people live more now and realizing that connection that mental health and the well-being right the holistic approach uh I think we saw the myth kind of on its own now that doesn't mean that we don't have the still still the same surge you know we you you make events right you make events you go to the events you go to the funerals you go to the to the um black dedications you go to the family uh you know the family picnic you know so that that leaves there but I just don't think that drinking is as prevalent as it was go ahead it's still there but not as prevalent yeah well great appreciate that your perspective on that um anything we didn't cover that you'd like to talk about no I think you cover it I think the only thing that that I will say and I think you guys kind of hit on it by by the book that you're putting out you know there's my experience here of what I've seen um and I think it's only because of the size of our department uh I think you could you could see the same thing with a smaller department put the the uh there's a lot of stuff out there now there's a lot of stuff everyone's got to do their due diligence and take a look at what is is best practices what's tried and true and unfortunately you know when this became uh it became big business right people came and said they you know there's tons of apps there's tons of this and I'm not knocking one of them right I think this you know all these websites all these things are great get more information out there um but yet you our toolbox is now getting so heavy people aren't picking up the toolbox you know they just I don't know which way to go you know right right and I think that's the thing that is as a uh profession first responders and mental health individuals we have to always be aware of because it's it's um I see that with a lot of people I sometimes I'll just get a phone call from someone I well I I don't know where to go I don't know what to do because it's just so many things. So we try at here now at the counseling we try to be the kind of clearing house this is good at this you know and just say like when we use an inpatient facility we vet that out you know we go there we don't send anybody to a place that I have either personally been or one of our staff members has been then we know that they take our insurance we know you know we do all those things and we try try diligently to do the same even when we do referrals so I think that would be the only thing that I that I've seen is an overwhelming amount of information that isn't always helpful.

Voiceover 44:14

Right. Well that's a great service you're providing and overall um kudos to you for all the the great things you're doing for mental wellness substance abuse and um just general overall wellness for your members um I think it's it's exemplary and I think uh people can learn from that um just by hearing you speak about it.

SPEAKER_05 44:33

So appreciate you spending this time with us and where can people find you is there any uh contacts you want to share any uh social media dot like not on any social media you know um fire department andrew dot gain at fdyny dot nyc.gov that's my that's my work email I don't I really don't unfortunately I get I get enough um information coming in I don't need that too yeah I don't blame you but I probably should probably should yeah yeah it's it's a it's a good tool it's a good uh you know uh base to have and then thank you for having me and things like this are I think are fantastic to get the word out uh of what is out there and what should be used and what should not be what needs to be looked at carefully.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Stacy final thoughts just it was so great to have your perspective having you know been there for 9-11 and then now you know being a social worker and overseeing all these different counseling and substance abuse um programs in New York City it's just you know they've they're very lucky to have you.

Voiceover 45:41

Oh thank you thank you I don't know if you didn't get a lot of people to agree to that but I appreciate your opinion well LT it's been a pleasure thank you for spending this time with us and share this and uh look forward to catching up with you again soon when uh we'll give you the heads up when we have some exciting news about books.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

Yeah oh yes look at thank you for the forum and thank you for everything that you guys are doing as well.

Voiceover 46:04

Remember to like and subscribe YouTube responder resilient Facebook responder tvs and spotify go to our website responder tv.com for past episodes and get information. Till the next time stay safe be kind to yourself take care of