EMDR for EMS: Healing Off-Duty Trauma | S5 E4

SPEAKER_05 0:00

They're not on duty, they're not getting paid for this. They're doing it because they felt called to do it. They know there's a victim and they want to alleviate suffering and save a life. And that's amazing.

Bonnie Rumilly 0:11

No matter if you're first on scene or the last on-scene, we all experience that kind of a call differently.

SPEAKER_07 0:17

One therapist at the thing couldn't help me, and that was really defeating. You know, what do you do now? All I thought of was, it's my fault. You know, I did something wrong. And then, you know, going to the therapy in the EMDR, you realized you did the right thing. You did the best that you could. And now you're on a road for your own recovery.

Voiceover 0:45

Welcome to this episode of Responder Resilience. We're going to tackle the critical issues of post-traumatic stress and the unique challenges faced by first responders. Today we're going to explore how to find the right therapist who understand first responder specific needs, the power of EMDR in healing trauma, and we're going to delve into the phenomenon of buffing or responding to emergency calls while off duty. What does that mean for first responders and their mental health? We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook Responder Wellness Inc. and Responder TV. LinkedIn, Apple Podcast, Spotify, go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at First ResponderCenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. We'll be right back. Talk about all those topics and more right after this.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

SPEAKER_05 1:42

In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in crisis, while responders are quietly suffering.

Voiceover 1:54

In this family, many struggle with job-related stress, burnout, moral injury, sleep disruptions, substance abuse, and relationship problems. In this family, we had helped the helpers. With vital information and resources, resilience strategies, and success stories of overcoming the obstacles. Welcome to Responder Resilience. We co-host retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Rumley, LCSW EMTV. Today's episode, we're going to be featuring some clips that we recorded with Frank Glaudsky. He's an emergency medical technician in EMSI in Connecticut. We recorded them at the EMS and Fire Pro Expo, and Frank is going to be talking about some of his firsthand experiences coming upon emergency scenes as an off-duty person, and also how he had to seek help and the kind of help he was able to find that helped him through it. So we'll be showing those clips in a little bit. First, um Bonnie Stacy, I wanted to kind of start off talking about buffing, which is where sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally, first responders find themselves uh coming upon an emergency scene and called into action. Um I know a couple of us may have stories about where that actually happened for us. Um but Bonnie, what can you share about buffing? Like, is it some is it a good thing? Is it something that you would encourage, or is there, you know, is there a downside to it?

Bonnie Rumilly 3:32

Well, it's interesting because I notice a couple of things about our peers in the first responder world. Um, some people are very inclined to get involved and happy to get involved or insert themselves at times into these situations. And some people don't want anything to do with it when they're off duty. Um, it also depends what kind of situation you're talking about. You know, I think we've all been on an airplane where they say, Is anyone trained here?

unknown 3:59

Right.

Bonnie Rumilly 4:00

And you look around to see, okay, are there doctors on board? You know, who else is here besides me? Who's gonna raise their hand first before I have to And when they say it again, you say, okay, they clearly don't have anybody, so I'm going. Um, versus some of the other situations I know I've been in where I'm the only one and this emergency happens right in front of me. So um in those situations, it's I think so much clearer because I don't know anyone that wouldn't run in. Um, it's in our blood, it's something that we're programmed for, and we're always on the ready to some degree. Uh, it's hard to put a percent on it, but uh, even in my own office here, one day I looked outside and I saw the police cruiser and I said, All right, let me go see what's happening. I'm not gonna sit in here in case I'm needed. So I go outside and it turned out there was a child missing in the neighborhood. So quickly I went from therapist in my office to searching out in the parking lot for a missing child and just kind of boom, went right into action and asked how I could help and started to do my part. So it's a complex issue, and I think we've all been faced with it in different times. But as a therapist, we're getting exposed to the same traumas. Um and sometimes when you're someone's only chance, that puts more of a pressure on you. Um, but you have less time to think about it until after.

Voiceover 5:27

You know, I'll put another spin on it. There's also those times when first responders might choose to respond because they hear a call go out and perhaps there's already a response in motion, but they're like, you know, I can get to this quicker or whatever. And I'll I'll give an example. Uh I was newly minted EMT, volunteer EMT, and uh had the pager on, I heard the tones go out for an address close to my house, and it was a cardiac issue. And I'm like, cool, I'm gonna go show up first on scene. And so I pull up and uh go in the house, and I find uh uh a woman who is hysterical in the bedroom with uh her husband unresponsive on the bed. And um, you can imagine what they had been doing, but he um he was in cardiac arrest, and so I have a hysterical person, you know, loved one, and someone who needs um immediate CPR on the bed, which is not an optimal place to do it. So I was, you know, in over my head right out of the gate, and um realized that, you know, I probably should have just waited for the ambulance to show up and then perhaps um, you know, I'm not sure being there if it's helpful in that circumstance where you're sort of divided between trying to calm somebody and trying to take care of, you know, skills, um, life-saving skills. So um, yeah, there's certainly times when you know it might be better to have the response show up and then go in and you know and attend to the emergency.

Bonnie Rumilly 6:55

Well, and in your situation, you're talking about sort of the nuance of being a home responder, which is a possibility in some places. It's it's less so with paid employees. Um, you know, they are gonna go out on the ambulance, but a lot more volunteer folks have that responsibility, possibility to respond in their neighborhoods. So it opens up a kind of a different can. Um, you know, and I found myself in those situations as well. So there's such a wide array. And then we think of all the people we've had on this show who found themselves at a mass shooting or found themselves um on the day of Sandy Hook off duty. And what do we all do when something goes? We run um because we want to help people. The same thing happened on 9-11. So there's such a scale, I think, to look at with what we call this buffing or responding off duty. Um, it really is so dependent on the person and the actual emergency. And I think because we're all trained very deeply for MCIs, uh, when one happens, we just know all hands on deck.

Voiceover 8:06

Stacy, you can you talk to the uh the personality types we're we're looking at here?

SPEAKER_05 8:11

Yeah, I I can because um as the two of you were talking, um, I had a c a retired firefighter um who had responded to 9-11 actually, and um it was no longer a firefighter, but he he he was a client, and um, you know, it's his time for his appointment, and he's not there, and and he comes in at least 20 minutes late, and not at all apologetic or anything. And I was a little bit miffed, and I've I tried calling him, I you know, texted him like enough, nothing. He just comes in, he's got blood all over him. And he tell he proceeds to tell me that he witnessed an accident in front of him and he tended to the woman, the victim. And he happened to, you know, he carried an emergency bag in his vehicle. He uh he treated her wounds. He well, prior to all that, he called 911 and um she was thanking him for being with her. And um she said, Will you please just stay until the ambulance comes? He said, I won't leave you, and you know, you know, I will hand you off to the paramedic, paramedic and the MT when they show up. And just very I I was so impressed. Here I was angry, you know, not angry, but just like, you know, he didn't even have the decency to call me and tell me he was being late. But I could not believe the selflessness that, you know, he he didn't care about his appointment. He cared about this woman. Right. That that was priority, you know. So he put himself aside and tended to what he felt was priority. And I was so impressed with that. So that's my take on the personality. It's to, you know, it is in their blood to to quote Bonnie. You know, it's it's it's really incredible to just drop every and to see somebody just drop everything. They're not on duty, they're not getting paid for this. They're not gonna, their name's not gonna be in the news, they're not doing it for that. They're doing it because they felt called to do it. They know there's a victim and they want to alleviate suffering and save a life. And and that's amazing.

SPEAKER_06 10:16

This is First Responder Center for Excellence Managing Director Frank Lieb, inviting you to Music City, Nashville, where a critical conversation awaits. Join us for the Fire Service Mental Wellness and Suicide Prevention Symposium, March 20th and 21st, 2025, at the Renaissance Nashville Hotel. Don't miss our opening reception on March 19th at the Country Music Hall of Fame, a great way to network and kick off the event. Prepare for tomorrow with tools you can use today. We've lined up an incredible group of speakers, including Thomas Joyner and Dr. Sally Spencer Thomas, as they share the roadmap to support our brothers and sisters on the front lines. Let's make mental wellness a priority and learn effective evidence-based strategies from the best in the field. Let's come together and tackle the critical issue of suicide and public safety. Your journey towards better mental health starts in Nashville. Spots are limited, so be sure to reserve your place now at firstrespondercent.org backslash events.

Bonnie Rumilly 11:32

And it it's hard to describe, but you you just kick into that mode. And Stacy, I think we've been in situations together where you have watched me transition from therapist to EMT um a few times. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

When I've been with you, and I remember us talking about it. She gets out the blood pressure cuff.

Voiceover 11:53

Well, that's that's the other piece, right? Like um, how many of us have you know we go bags in our cars, like you know, EMS bags, uh, BLS bags, ALS bags, um, rope rescue equipment. I mean, I've carried uh stuff even to get people unstuck on the beach in my car for um for years because I've had to literally, you know, tow people out of, you know, being stuck in the sand. So um, and I think there's part of us that loves having that preparedness and that opportunity to help somebody out in a moment of need, just in a, you know, that happens in the moment right there in front of us.

Bonnie Rumilly 12:27

Yeah. Right. I mean, I think that I've done this counted times over the 25 years that I've uh had my EMT skills. And a couple of the most glaring ones that stick out for me is one time I was driving into the city on the West Side Highway, and about three or four cars up from me, a car just flipped. Um, it hit the barrier, ricocheted, and flipped over. Um, and so you could imagine everyone was at a standstill, and I was far enough back, or my car didn't get hit, and I wasn't involved in that, but here I am watching, and I know that no one's around and I'm the only person, and the car's on its roof, and there's a woman trapped in there. She's the driver. And I had to make a really quick judgment call of okay, you know, I'm with my husband at the time, but I do have some equipment in the back. I have a jacket, so if I get out, I'll be safe on this roadway with my auntie jacket. Okay, so there was a checkbox checked off. I have some stuff, I have some gloves. Um, and then I had to turn to him and say, Look, I might be this woman's chance, and I know there could be gas pouring out of the car and it could blow and I might be there, but I can't sit here and watch this. Like I need to go. Um, you know, and he understood. So there I go to the trunk, I get everything, I go. Um, was able to help her and until fire arrived. And, you know, once they come over and we transfer care, you go on your merry way, and then you go to lunch or the show or whatever you were going to the city for, and you kind of forget that it even happened almost. Um, because it just feels like, okay, I I did what's natural to me and now I'm gonna go back to my family. Um look, that's a big ask. You know, it's a big ask to put yourself um at risk. But I for myself I think about that for a split second, and I think more about you know, my husband having to give up that sacrifice of me.

unknown 14:28

Right.

Bonnie Rumilly 14:29

If that makes sense.

Voiceover 14:30

Yeah. Well, I think um that's gonna head us into our discussion and our clips with Frank Glauski because um there are also situations where we come across an emergency incident that um impacts us on a long-term basis, and and that's um something Frank talks about. So let's um move forward and kind of let Frank introduce himself and then we'll start our clip discussion.

SPEAKER_07 14:53

My name is Frank Glawski. Um an EMT and EMSI, and I volunteer uh down in the town of Boltzaber, which is along the shoreline.

Voiceover 15:04

So Frank's gonna talk about um some incidents that he came across. Uh he was, you know, more or less off duty. It happened at night, and um, they actually happened in very close to his house. So it was something where he was kind of forced to pass by the scene uh on a routine basis, so that had an impact on on Frank after the fact. So uh let's hear Frank speaking about the incident.

SPEAKER_07 15:26

First of all, one of the things I'll tell you about these incidents is they all occurred at night. Um, and as most people know, when you're just woken up out of a sleep and run out the door, your adrenaline's running. And uh one thing I learned from critical incident um debriefing on some of these calls was that a lot of that information stays right in the front of your head, and that's why when you close your eyes, you know, you keep seeing those images. Um and then so these calls were all car accidents, and uh the unfortunate thing for me was that they were all at the end of my road. Um two of them in the exact same location, and they were fatals, and one was a 16-year-old, which made it even harder. Um and then uh the one that really sent me down the path of um needing help, although I didn't think I needed help, was the accident at the end of the road where I live now. Um, it was a horrific accident. I was there before the fire department and the ambulance was at the end of my road, um, and it was something I would never wish anybody to see or experience. Um I remember there were people there. Um and it was an unfortunate incident where this person was still alive but the car was ready. And I told the witnesses that they should leave because I knew what was next. And we tried very hard to get her out of the car, and we just couldn't. So you know that puts you into a shot. You know, people that's not something people can compute, I think, to see something happen like that right in front of your eyes. That's not natural.

Voiceover 17:19

So a lot to unpack there. Stacy, um, why don't you dive into it and kind of give your commentary?

SPEAKER_05 17:25

But you could see uh how Frank was gripped with emotion still. You know, the seriousness, the intensity, um that first responders have to uh, you know, deal with the um the horror of this woman, I guess, burned to death af in after the car accident. And they're wit they're watching this and trying to get her out. Um, and the the lasting impression of of seeing that, maybe even hearing her, um, you know, it's tragic. And I, you know, we have to appreciate what first responders go through compared to, you know, uh typical civilian who may may never see something like that.

Bonnie Rumilly 18:13

You know, I have my therapist hat on listening to him talk and thinking the bonding that happens in those very early moments of a call, especially a critical call when it's something like what he described. Um you're bonding with that patient on a soul level that you can't even describe. You're with someone either during their surmise or uh during something that's horrifically painful for them and their family. And I do think that we bond very closely. And I think that's why it sticks with people even more. Um, no matter if you're first on scene or the last on scene, we all experience that kind of a call differently. And there is something so deeply profound and often disturbing about being with someone who is in that much pain because um there are certain ways that people can die that are particularly gruesome, particularly painful to watch. Um, and certainly in as being a trauma therapist and being an EMS, um, someone burning to death is it's just horrific. So I think Stacy also picked up on you can see his affect change when he's talking about it. Um, and I really, really appreciated his vulnerability here. Um, and for those who are listening or watching, Frank offered to do this interview um and he offered to help us in any way that he could with this cause. So um it was very profound for me to see that he was willing to talk about such a difficult situation to help all of you as well.

Voiceover 19:50

Yes, absolutely. Um Frank was completely um open, and as you'll hear in some of these later clips, um he shared a lot about his journey um healing from these incidents. And uh I just wanted to remark that he he had the presence of mind to tell the bystanders to um you know basically to move away from the scene, to leave the scene because he knew what was happening next. So he was not only focused on the uh the patient, but also the uh you know the public. So um kudos to Frank for that.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

At the core of every community beats the heart of its first responders, ever present on the front line, making the impossible look routine. Through the relentless pressure and the unseen scars, our frontline warriors silently battle the stress of the job. It's crucial they armor up mentally and emotionally, not just for the community they safeguard, but for the families they return to. Supporting the wellness and mental health of first responders is priority number one. By championing their well-being, we're ensuring they're unstoppable, both in the line of duty and in life. Step up for the titans who protect us because when they're firing on all cylinders, they're not just first responders, they're game changers. Join us.com to be the difference.

Voiceover 21:27

He's gonna talk about some more of this incident where he um couldn't extricate the victim and and what happened next in terms of how he um responded or reacted to being part of this incident.

SPEAKER_07 21:40

And I shut down. I I I just shut down. I remember I went home, I didn't say a word. I don't know. I remember my kids were young, they were asking me, you know, it was a bad accident, and I just remember saying, I don't want to talk. And I went into my bedroom and I just sat there. And I took it away for a while because I thought I could treat myself, I thought I could help myself. But every time I drove by, every time I closed my eyes, it was right there, right in front of me. And that palpation, that anxiety, you know, I could be two miles from my road going home. And that and that's when I was like, I need help.

Voiceover 22:25

So, Stacy, I think Frank's um he's referring to being triggered, activated by um sites and reminders of this this incident.

SPEAKER_05 22:34

Right, his limbic system was fried in that moment, right? And so that's why he shut down. He needed to shut down, he needed to take care of himself and not be exposed to the details anymore, right? There is sort of a natural avoidance to kind of just let me put it over here. Um, and um, there's also that hope that it just doesn't bother me, it'll just go away, it'll get it'll fade over time. But as you could see that, you know, there was the beginning of a post-traumatic injury, post-traumatic stress injury, and you know, just coming close to the place of the accident, you know, or if he even closed his eyes, he was having intrusive um images of of the victim. And, you know, that's how you know that you you probably do need to get some help. And of course, there's this feeling of, I want to handle this myself. I I want to just be able to get past this, you know, I should be strong enough. But given the nature of the work, it doesn't really have enough, it doesn't have to do with strength. It has to do with what you're exposed to, is is something so highly traumatic that it's it's um kind of seared into your limbic system. And your limbic system is saying, here you need to work on this, here you need to work on this. It's it's just keeps um bringing it forward. And so that's a sign after several weeks, you should probably, you know, seek out some help. And um, you know, there's some very good techniques that can just put that to rest so that you can get on with your life.

Bonnie Rumilly 24:08

I would say it's also very, very common for Stacy and I and our colleagues to see people come into the office presenting this way. And when it's in those first weeks after the call, they're really in that acute stress process. Um, and when it's beyond four weeks, is when it gets into the zone of PTSD diagnosis. But um, Stacy said it, but I'll reiterate it. We have EMDR protocols and we can get in there right away, right after an event. So although there is a sense of pride of trying to do it on one's own and hoping it will go away, in our experience, it does not. Um, it will continue to visit you until you do the work on it, um, which is hard because it's causing you to face it. Um, but there are ways that we can do that in the therapy office that are extremely effective. Um, you know, we have people that come in who say, I drive 20 minutes out of my way so that I don't have to go past that school or that building or that house. Um, and if that's what you're doing, look at the impact that has on your daily life.

Voiceover 25:12

Absolutely. Um, and Frank details his journey to find help to get help and to find the right person to get help. So let's hear him speak about that.

SPEAKER_07 25:23

Now, this was back in 2016, and the process of getting help from a clinician back then was very hard. And I actually went through um I I did uh two therapists. Um one therapist said that they couldn't help me, and that was really defeating. You know, what do you do now? You know, my life is upside down, so what do you do now? And luckily I was able to find a therapist that did EMDR and specialize in it. Um and I've been doing that treatment, and now I feel I have recovered. However, it's still back there, but it's tucked away now, you know. Um so I I don't have to worry about two miles from my road now getting that heart application and stuff like that. EMDR was the best thing for me. I remember I was so skeptical about it, and I was like, this isn't gonna work, you know. I cannot recommend EMDR even just planal therapy for fire, EMS, police officers over 100%. 110% you should do it.

Bonnie Rumilly 26:46

I couldn't agree with him more. Um, you know, it's very defeating. He had the perfect word for that when a first responder has been through this horror and they really they know they're struggling, they finally get the courage to make that call, and now they have someone who says, This is over my head, or I don't have the tools to help you. And I that breaks my heart, obviously, as a therapist and a first responder to hear that. Um, and it's part of what drives all of us to do our work so that people don't have that experience. But I would say, you know, at least that therapist would had the wherewithal to tell you the truth. Um, we would hope they would shepherd you to another therapist who could help you in that scenario. But EMDR is the gold standard, and it will take that disturbance level that you're experiencing. It'll help your brain process the information and store it in a place that's more efficient. So we will always have that memory. You could always call it up if you were asked to, but you don't need to live with it tormenting you and intrusively putting itself in your mind whenever it feels like it.

SPEAKER_05 27:59

So just uh I think we need to be clear the EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, right? This is a therapy that's been around since the late 1980s, and um it it is very quick and effective. And um, you know, if if first responders think about like, well, I you know, I don't want to go to therapy because I don't want to have to talk about my mother and you know, other things from my childhood, um, it's so laser focused that um, you know, we can just, you know, tick off call, bad call by bad call, and work them through, process them so that those calls no longer, when you think about it, you don't have the physiological response, you know, which is you know, his heart palpitations, his his feeling of dread or anxiety. I mean, that's all fight or flight. And that's he probably was in sympathetic arousal at the time of the emergency, right? And so any reminder of it, if it hasn't been fully processed, is going to trigger all of those bodily reactions. Um, so he he did a great job describing what he was stuck in, and you can't think your way out of it. You you know, it's not something that has to do with intelligence, it has to do with um kind of balancing out the brain. And EMDR is um, you know, such an effective tool, technique, type of therapy to do that.

Voiceover 29:24

Let's go to the next clip, and that's um Frank talking about what's on the other side after the process he went through.

SPEAKER_07 29:32

And me going through what I went through. That showed me that there is light on the other side, and that I can continue to do my job. So now I do. I I'm back out on the road um and I'm doing my job, and you know, I just I just check in with my therapist every you know, every month, make sure everything is good.

Voiceover 29:52

Well, Stacy, I know uh you guys talk about tune-ups or you know, checking in. Um, yeah, what's what's important about what Frank's talking about in terms of being able to uh kind of come back around periodically and take care of mental health?

SPEAKER_05 30:07

I see this a lot in my clients. You know, they um we we work on the traumas that they are aware of that they've already experienced, obviously, and um kind of put those to rest. They go back to their life. And um, but we EMDR therapists say, you know, the door is always open if if you come across another call um that that starts to bother you, and now they know they know the signs, and so they'll come in sooner and we can put it to rest quicker. You know, and so it's it's critically important. Um and they they trust the process. And so they they have that therapist kind of in their hip pocket, like, okay, if if I happen to go on a horrific call, I know that I can, and it and it bothers me. I know the signs, and then I know I can go to the I can go to my therapist and we can just uh we can uh do the processing and heal this.

Bonnie Rumilly 31:04

You know, I would also interject that it's a sense of a safety net for our responders uh because Stacy and I do have a lot of clients who are at that point of maintenance or coming in kind of PRN as needed. Um, and that's okay because we feel they're at the place where they can do that, but it's such a safety net that they know they can go on a shift, and no matter what comes their way, even if it's upsetting or they don't know how they're gonna get through it, they have this frame of reference with EMDR and the success they've already built, and they know they can work on it. So I find that the people that are on the other side, like what Frank is describing, they have less fear about their job and what's coming on the next shift. When people do not do this work, there is more anxiety and more fear, even if they don't tell anybody it's there and it's living inside of them, and it comes up when they're driving to the station or when the tones drop, it's living right in their belly or their chest sometimes. Um, and I know for myself, uh, when I was still riding on the ambulance, I knew I had that safety net too, because I said, okay, if I go on a call and it's really bothering me, I'm just gonna go right to my EMDR colleague and get some help. So I had benefited from that safety net as well. And I wish that everyone really knew and embraced that it's a possibility for them to have that.

SPEAKER_05 32:30

I I want to jump in here. I had a um uh I had terminated our work with a uh a police officer, and I said, no, my door is always open. And so he was on scene um standing right in front of uh uh a civilian who was threatening suicide and then did pull the trigger, and he was, you know, six, ten feet away from this individual. And um, his supervisor, you know, kind of dismissed him off shift. He went over to his patrol car and he texted me immediately and said, I think I need a session. Um, and so within days I saw him, and because it was it hadn't really taken root in his in his mind, we uh we were able to use a protocol for a recent traumatic event, and um it was just one session, that's all it took. And so he never really suffered from that call um that happened right in front of him. So I I congratulated him. I said, You did the right thing. I wish more first responders would would do that because he knew that was gonna rattle him. He he knew it.

Voiceover 33:39

Yeah, great story. And and I want to underscore also that um, you know, I've heard from first responders that uh if they experience a certain level of anxiety about what might happen at work and their ability to deal with it, that they will call in sick, um, avoid going to work. And so this, you know, this is so important to again with our recruitment and retention problem to also make sure those that are on the job now are able to show up um, you know, as as they're supposed to, without fear um of with confidence that all right, if I happen to come across something that rattles me, I have a way to deal with it.

Bonnie Rumilly 34:17

Well, you're absolutely right, David. And I want to point out here that uh, you know, we see responders not just for these calls, but we see them for institutional abandonment and things like that as well. So sometimes it's the sheer building they're driving to or bosses they are driving to see that day. And they'll get the same exact feelings that Frank is describing from that call. Um, so it's important to know that that can happen through a variety of ways for our responders, but nonetheless, we can help that. And the second thing I wanted to say was um I think the work that we do with our responders with EMDR, they build muscle memory in their brain. And their brain moves through that information quicker. The more times they do EMDR, the more the brain knows, okay, yep, I'm back at this. I know how to heal, let's do it. And we see the pro progress and process move along quicker. Um, and I had someone who had one of these really horrific calls, called me, came in, and it turns out the person never needed to work on it with EMDR because he had done so much work on other things, it actually transferred to the scenario and he didn't really have any of the symptoms. That's not to say that it couldn't impact him at some point, but again, the safety net is here if need be. But in that particular situation, I really saw that the brain had a better healing mechanism on its own.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

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Voiceover 36:55

We all have talked about this, and we're going to be doing some more, at least one more episode about this, and that's um the toolbox, right? Having tools that can help you to cope and the skills that can help you to cope and manage stress. So um here's Frank talking a little bit about that topic.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

You know what is uh what was great about um the EMDR therapy um is how they teach you how to cope, you know, with those um feelings, you know. Um safe places. Um crossing the arms when I start getting anxious, and you know, just patting, putting my hand on my leg, patting down there. Um my my uh my therapist said think of a place that's comfortable for you, that you enjoy, and that place for me was the ocean. So when I would get anxious and I would just think about those waves crashing and me sitting on the beach, and that's how I coped with a lot of it.

Voiceover 38:01

I love that clip. Um, Stacy, what are your thoughts? I think uh he really said a lot there.

SPEAKER_05 38:05

Yeah, he's talking about um calm place, uh, some therapists call it safe place. Um it's really a great way to change the channel in your head and give um a sense of control um to not stay stuck in the the ruminating, you know, the constant thoughts about something negative. Um and you know, that that calm place is established you know during therapy. And then it it's something that you can rely on, you know, if you're out in the field or you're having trouble sleeping or whatever. You you can just call up. So for him, it was the ocean, you know, you use all of your senses, um, what it looks like, what it sounds like, even what the salt air smells like, and and then to just try to shift into that, you know, wonderful feeling image. And it gives a person a sense of control. Like I don't have to stay stuck in these um awful thoughts and and the feelings that go that go with them. So it's a it's a wonderful tool um to have.

Bonnie Rumilly 39:11

You know, he was also showing himself, we call these butterfly hugs um because it looks like a butterfly butterfly taps, butterfly hugs for kids that I used to work with a lot of kids, um, or tapping on the knees. Again, we teach our folks let's not tap quickly because that activates the brain. Every time you tap, we want you to do it slowly. And it's that bilateral stimulation that's touching both sides of the brain, left and right, and it's ultimately calming down your central nervous system. And when the central nervous system is getting calm with the taps, you can also access safer calmplace easier because your state is already changing. Um, and that's actually brain chemistry. That's what's going on in your body that's allowing you to shift your state.

Voiceover 39:58

Right. Um And I think we've covered this before, but I just want to uh kind of restate it that having tools like this that you can use at work on the shift between calls, um, help you reset and kind of regroup and get grounded between difficult calls. Um, I think it's just worth its waiting gold. It's such an important thing to I think that all first responders should have in their toolbox. So uh it's great that we were able to con uh put the spotlight on it again. Let's go to the next clip. He's gonna talk about where he would be, or he doesn't know where he would be if he didn't get the help that he got.

SPEAKER_07 40:34

I will say I had a lot of ups and downs. There were nights where I was just sitting in the bathroom, balling my eyes out, you know. And my wife walks in and you okay? And I'm like, I'm not okay. Do you want to go to the emergency room? I don't know what I want because I can't even think clearly. It's serious, you know? And I don't know where I'd be if I didn't get the help. I honestly don't. You know, it's a scary thought, but I just don't know where I'd be.

Voiceover 41:10

Bonnie, your thoughts on what Frank's talking about?

Bonnie Rumilly 41:14

You know, when he's um describing the fear, that's it's very real. Um, when you're being flooded or bombarded with these thoughts and feelings and you don't know what to do with them, it's very scary. And to his point, I do think that it does lead people down different roads, whether it's suicidal ideations or um substance abuse or what have you. Um, you can understand by what he's saying how sometimes people just need that relief and they don't know where it's coming from. Um, and thankfully he sought help and was able to get the right help to get himself in a better place. And I think the important thing for me to say here is um please know that that's possible. You know, if you have ever felt this way, please know that it can change and that it can get better. And there are people who understand it. You know, nobody's looking to call 911 or take you down to the psych ward. Sometimes you just need someone to sit with you and to let you know we can get this in a better spot. You don't have to feel this way every day.

SPEAKER_05 42:24

And I want to add to that how difficult it is for a first responder who is somebody that is used to, you know, coming on scene to a, you know, to chaos and be able to, you know, do the right thing, whether the patient survives or the victim survives or not. But you know, there's a protocol, they know what to do, they can, they can um get the scene under under control, resume order. When they are having their own emotional crisis and they can't think their way out of it, they they can't calm their nervous system down because they're they don't have have any of these skills yet, how alarming that must be for a first responder. You know, they they're the ones that come in and and fix the situation, put the fire out, stop the bleeding, you know, catch the bad guy. But then when they have their own emotional overwhelm and they they can't stop it. There's nothing that they can just, there's no protocol that they know that they can follow to calm um to calm their emotional state. Um, they start feeling like a failure. Like I I'm useless. I I can't even help myself. How can I help other people? There is help out there. Um, it's just a matter of, you know, putting your pride aside. This is not a weak, it's not a weakness to reach out for um, you know, for psychotherapy. It's really it shows courage, it shows strength that you care about yourself and you're like, I need to, I need to do some healing work so that I can get back to my family and I can get back to my my job.

Bonnie Rumilly 44:01

Well, it's also it's like a tourniquet, right? If you you could think of EMDR as a tourniquet, um if I had a severed artery and it was bleeding out, would I stand there and just watch that happen and watch someone bleed out and die in front of me? No, I would not. So if my brain is, so to speak, bleeding out and I don't have a tourniquet, I need to get somebody who does have one.

unknown 44:26

Right.

Bonnie Rumilly 44:27

And to me, that's an analogy that anybody listening could understand. Yeah. Um, you know, we can be coy and we can have a little chuckle about it, but honestly, I don't know how more explicitly to say it. Um, you have an injury in your brain, it has nothing to do with weakness, failure, helplessness. Yeah, are those all the feelings that we derive from it and associate with it? Absolutely. And I've been in that boat myself. But if we can get people to think of it in the medical model, okay, I have an injury to my brain, I need someone that can help with the injury. Bottom line, end of story.

Voiceover 45:06

Yeah, all good points. Let's um go to the next clip, and this is going to get into a topic that I think is super important, and that's first responders um sometimes are involved in incidents where they aren't able to save someone, the outcome is not what we hope for. Um, how do they deal or cope with those negative feelings and beliefs that uh come along with that experience?

SPEAKER_07 45:29

Yeah, so that was the that was the hardest thing for me. Um, and I'm sure that is the hardest thing for a lot of people in my position. Because we train to help people, we respond to help people and make sure they're safe. So I was defeated. I felt like I didn't do my job, I didn't save this person. It's my fault. All those were in my head, you know. Um so the clinician really brought it to my attention I did do my job. And there are times where we're not gonna be able to save the people that we respond to, and be grateful for the ones that we do, you know. But I didn't think of it that way prior to going to therapy. All I thought of was it's my fault. You know, I did something wrong. And then, you know, going to the therapy in the EMDR, you realize you did the right thing. You did the best that you could, and you know, now you're on a road with your own recovery.

Voiceover 46:48

That's uh such an incredible testimonial. Um, Bonnie, what are your thoughts about the reframe that Frank's talking about?

Bonnie Rumilly 46:55

I mean, I have so many thoughts. Those feelings are so natural for us responders. And I said before, I've had some of those same feelings. You are programmed to go in there and do everything you can to save somebody. And I think the longer you're in EMS, the longer you're in these fields, you know that you are part of the plan, but you aren't always not the whole plan. And you know, we sometimes need to walk away knowing that they're gone and we couldn't do anything. And I think it's really, really hard for responders because we don't want to lose anyone or anything. And, you know, to other people on the outside, it might be, oh, well, that was one person, but you know what? One person means the world to us in that moment, and that person becomes our existence. So you rip that, even though we've just met them or we've had been in their presence for five minutes, it's just so deep. It's hard to explain the depth that you feel in those situations. And I think that's what makes that personal association and failure and everything so much deeper because we feel it in our body. It gets stuck in your body for a reason because you're feeling it there. And many in these fields are empaths, you know. We're we're people people, we feel others' emotions, we want to fix it. Um, so it's totally normal, but we have to flip that switch and we have to learn how to flip that switch of not taking 100% of that responsibility because sometimes it's not up to us. It it could have simply been their time.

SPEAKER_05 48:42

Well said, Bonnie. You know, we there are the mysteries of life, right? That we really can't um we can't understand um totally. But you know, it is very clear to me how the first responder tends to come away with the outcome and their judgment of the outcome. And sometimes the outcome is the family, if the family's around, reacting to the the knowing that their loved one has passed, right? And so then there's the emotional fallout on the part of the family, and that impacts the first responder as well because and makes them feel even more guilty. Yes. You know, because you have now a room full of of um people who are upset and it just compounds their own feeling of responsibility that, you know, here I was working the person, they didn't make it, and um, now all these people are have have just lost, they have they've just lost their loved one. Um so what first responders tend to forget, and this is what AMDR helps with, once you once we work on the emotion, that negative belief of um I'm defeated, I failed, I lost this person, it's my fault, to use Frank's words, that starts to lighten up. And the knowing of I went in there with all good intentions, I wanted to save that person, and I'm a good person for showing up and doing my best, my intentions were good. And so the blame kind of starts to melt away. And we see that happen very quickly with with EMDR. Once the intense feelings, the you know, the the sadness, the shock, the guilt, once that starts to melt, then the you know, the rational thoughts start to float in. And then we reinforce those. Those are healthy thoughts too, they're and they're accurate. Like their intention was good. It's just, you know, the the person didn't make it. And they're not going in with probability, uh, you know, the probability that not everybody's gonna survive this a car accident like this.

Bonnie Rumilly 50:53

Well, very well said, and the other thing I think it's important to point out here is that first responders come into this work often because there were things they couldn't fix or things that needed fixing inside themselves. And here we're basically picking at the very scab that sometimes lives inside of thy soul. And so when that thing touches that place, I think there's a more profound and deeper impact. Um, you know, and that's that's really mind-blowing and subconscious Freudian kind of thought process here, but I we see that more and more. Um, so one could argue this population is also one of the hardest on themselves. I mean, I think doctors, dentists, nurses, um, hospital staff, yes, they all are very similar in this regard, but I think very, very hard on themselves. And those thoughts of I failed or I'm helpless or I should have done better, those are really familiar thoughts and easy for them to access and easy for them to fixate on. Um and I would like to wave a wand and change that. Um, but since we haven't figured out how to do that on a mass level, we will continue to do it on a one-on-one basis uh until we find such a wand.

Voiceover 52:15

Let's watch the last clip in this series from Frank Glausky talking about how important mental health is for first responders, especially nowadays.

SPEAKER_07 52:24

Um mental health, especially for the first responders, police officers, um dispatchers, EMS, is extremely important. The stuff that all of us see out there on the road, maybe not on a daily basis, weekly basis, whatever it may be, it's important, even if you don't have a traumatic experience, that have an outlet, someone to talk to. A peer group, you know, if your department has a peer group or find a peer group um that's out there, there's plenty in the state, you know. I think it's really important that if you want to continue to, you know, practice an EMS or firefighting, that you should do that.

Voiceover 53:12

Well put. Um, Bonnie, final thoughts as we wrap up.

Bonnie Rumilly 53:15

I I really couldn't have said it any better way. Um, and I really thank Frank. He covered so many things in he was just so articulate and poignant in his comments. I I want to thank him so much. And it was a real pleasure to watch this interview after meeting Frank. I I think just so highly of him. So I'm glad we had this opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 53:38

He had the courage to open up, be vulnerable, talk about what rattled him and and then uh his success story of how he overcame it. Um, I find that people like Frank are the the ones that make the most impact because he's in the field. And, you know, he said, This is, you know, I was knocked to my knees, and then I went to therapy, and now I'm doing my job and I'm healthy. Um, you know, if if we could hear that message more and more, because you know, I could I'm not any I'm not a uh first responder. I could I could talk to people till I'm blue in the face about, you know, you need to get some therapy to get past your trauma. But I think it it's so much more impactful hearing it from a first responder.

Bonnie Rumilly 54:20

You know, the the other thing is Frank's also a leader. Um, he has another hat that he wears with the state, uh leading a region. And I want to also commend and point out the fact that he's a leader and he's putting this out there. And I hope a lot of people seeing that say, well, if he can do it, I can do it too. Right.

Voiceover 54:40

Again, I personally want to thank Frank for being part of this and sharing his journey and being so open and honest with it. I think it's um it is going to impact people who who can resonate with the story and and see that um there is light on the other side, like Frank says. I would like to invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube responder resilience, Facebook, responder wellness sync, and responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com, for past episodes of guest information. Till next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself, take care.