Mental Health Canines in Crisis Response | S5 E9

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When I helped out at Sandy Hawk 12 years ago, I had no idea where this was going. I was just helping my neighbor. These dogs and handlers too, they're taught how to use the dog as a connection and engagement tool. Since then, we've done everything from active shooters, bombings, murder suicide, suicide, homicide, hostage situation, prison takeovers, airplane crashes, railroad derailments, takeovers of government buildings. How do you tell a state police captain who's totally jaded that he needs to talk somebody? I'm good. I'm good. That watershed moment for a group debrief is important because it allows everyone to be human.

Voiceover 0:45

Welcome to Respond Resilience, along with my co-host, Dr. Stacy Raymond. I'm David Dashinger. Today's episode will be speaking with Brad Cole. He's the executive director of Canine First Responders, Inc., and we're going to explore the evolution of crisis mental health canines. We'll be discussing how the dogs exist in crisis situations. Take a look at their potential unintended consequences of their use, and we'll outline some best practices for integrating them into response plans. And we'll definitely be touching on the interface of mental health clinicians and these dogs. Additionally, we're going to take an inside look at Canine First Responders' upcoming second annual Comfort Dogs and Public Safety Conference. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook Responder Wellness, Think and Responder TV, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, LinkedIn, and check out our website ResponderTV.com for past episodes and guest information. This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at FirstResponderCenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. Our resource partner, Fight Camp, is offering an exclusive deal for viewers of Responder Resilience. For a limited time, you can get an amazing free package valued at $238, which includes punch crackers, quick wraps, and a free 45-day membership trial. Don't miss out. Email us at inforesponderTV.com with the subject line Fight Camp to claim your free package today. We'll be right back to speak with Brad after this. In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in crisis, while respondents are quietly suffering.

Voiceover 2:30

In this family, many struggle with populated stress, burnout, all injury, sleep disruptions, substance abuse, and relationship problems. In this family, we can help the helpers. With vital information and resources, resilience, success stories of overcoming the obstacles.

SPEAKER_05 2:53

Welcome to Respire Resilience. We co-host retired Lieutenant David Daschenger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Remily, LCSW, ELTV.

Voiceover 3:11

We'd like to welcome back Brad Cole. He's the executive director, subject matter expert, and thought leader for K9 First Responders. He's got 36 years of experience in security and crisis management and investigations. And combined with his years of Guard Force management, Brad brings a strong operational and training discipline to K9FR. His experience with government, diplomatic, medical, and corporate clients enhances K9FR's operational effectiveness. He's got an incredible, impressive array of credentials and certifications. And uh Brad, we'd like to welcome you back to Responder Resilience.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

David, it's great to be back. Thank you. I apologize if my voice is a little hoarse. It's uh that time of year.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

No problem. So um, Brad, I wanted to start by asking you what inspired you to become a dog handler?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

It really was uh what I call an unintended walkabout. Um I've had grew up with dogs all my life. Um when I got my Akita Spartacus, who you know, um people seemed to really be drawn towards him. So I wanted to do something for my community. So we volunteered at Yelderhaven Health System and had done that for a while, and um he was well received. And then unfortunately, um the events took place at Sandy Hook and the tragedy there. Um I approached the crisis center and the crisis team there and introduced myself and let them know my background and let them know that what Sparkus um could be used for, and they're never thought of applying uh a dog at a crisis situation, and they invited me to join, and six months later I left. And um in between there were some other um very tragic events at a local high school and other places we were called into, and it kind of continued from that point.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

So, and I understand, and I may have heard it from you, that when the uh Newtown community was asked what did they find most helpful um from a therapy uh standpoint, that they said, you know, because there were various therapists, I was one of them that showed up at the middle school, and I did see dogs there, but I didn't know you at that time. Um but their response was that they most appreciated the dogs.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

That's correct. The the most influential uh resource uh for Newtown were the dogs. Um and um uh it was really, you know, during times like that, you don't think of things uh uh in that aspect, you just think of helping your neighbor one day along at a time. And um, you know, to to this day we still have a very special connection with Sandy Hook in Newtown.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Right. Why do you think that is while we're on that? Why do you think that you know the community said that it was just so comforting to have the dogs there? Now they appreciated the therapists, but there was something different about having the dogs. Can you explain that?

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Sure. The dogs allow a person to be in the present here and now. A person does not have to think about what they just experienced, what the loved one just experienced, or what the community is going through. And they can hit the pause or hold button while petting the dog. And we were very fortunate with having behind the scenes a very nuclear group of dog handlers who worked at Yellow New Haven Hospital or a couple other places where um tragic events occur, and so they knew how to be with people. Allow people to be themselves and bear witness to what was happening. And um we were very fortunate that we had that that neutral group of people to do so, and it made an impact. Um I remember one young girl, uh, we walked into the classroom and um she referred to me as her second dad. And another girl in the class said, Why is he your second dad? And she said in front of the class, she goes, Because he's always there when I need him. Kind of caught me by surprise, so does. Uh that family and I are still still friends today, but it's it's different for everybody, and we're just glad we're you know we were able to be there for the children, the adults, the teachers, the staff, and the members of public safety that um had to process a lot.

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SPEAKER_02 9:20

Excellent question, and thank you for asking it. Um during the past ten years or so, the evolution of dogs being used during a crisis or a um trauma has increased greatly. And the functional definition of and the job performance of each dog changes a little bit. Um you have therapy dogs that do a wonderful role, uh, or a community resource dog or a facility dog. That's just part of a wellness program that um comes in and just brightens up your day, you may have a bad day, may have just not started off well. Um, and that is a wonderful skill set to be able to understand people and know your dog and be able to use your dog for that. And then dogs go to um uh a comfort or crisis dog will go to um a public tragedy and provide support to the public, not any individual or group specific report support, but just to be there um and to help through that moment. But the training there is a little bit more intense because um they need to know what's called psychological first aid in case they come across somebody who uh unexpectedly needs that um uh protocol to be able to help them get through for the next several moments or minutes to understanding what the overall principle is of trauma-informed care and what trauma is. And for themselves to understand uh the nature of how um support teams interact with existing systems so they don't accidentally uh get someone's knickers twisted, so to speak, um, by by showing up. Um and then so Stacey, you know, as we went through this there become dogs were requested a more intense level of uh of interactions, which would be your um peer support dog, your quick lens and stress management dog, um where they're actually a part of a system and they're included in those protocols to help people and first responders and the community. At that particular point, the the prior two categories of dogs are more of a form of passive support. Pet my dog, feel better, hopefully brings them up. But the third category of dog and handler are trained to a much higher level because they're actually part of the support system. And they go from a passive form of support to an active form of support where they're utilized in safe usage, whether utilized by a system team, by a clinician or by a department to help stabilize somebody and get them emotionally grounded, or to get them even into uh debriefing. You know, sometimes uh first responders don't want to go into the debriefing, so I'm good.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Right, but if there's a dog there, it makes it a lot easier for them to go in and feel more relaxed.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Absolutely. And those peers are trained in the same mental health protocols as the agencies that they're working with. Um, you know, we recommend psychological first aid, curriculum stress management, post-traumatic stress management, um, and a few other things so they can be very effective. But what um these dogs and handlers do is they're taught how to use the dog as a connection and engagement tool. Because you know, first responders are tough to connect and engage with. You know, it's it's how do you do so? How do you tell how do you tell uh a state police captain um who's totally jaded that he needs to talk somebody? I'm good, I'm good. And um, you know, I kind of in in the the elevator speech I use sometimes is number one, at that level, we're the Walmart greeters of trauma. And the second part is that we're the used car salespeople, used car salesmen of trauma. We talk to you, find out what your needs are, and then we will bait and switch you with you agreeing to a different level of care. Interesting. Dogs promote trust. And um, you know, don't no bad people on dogs. Right. And you know, we're also trusted at a different level because we're part of that response system. We're vetted, they understand we're there. Right.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

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Voiceover 15:14

You kind of outlined uh some of the categories of mental health canines, and uh, can you just talk to like what distinguishes them? I know you you started to do that, but can you get a little more into the fine points of what distinguishes the different categories and like how do they how do they assist? And can you give us some generic scenarios where that might happen?

SPEAKER_02 15:33

You know, as we've talked about before, therapy dogs are wellness visits and visits to schools and offices and feel good. Um the comfort of crisis dogs support the community, they're a passive form of support. But as we talked about, the third category and one that we did not get into is the trauma intervention canine or the canine first responder. Some the training there is very similar to the third category, but the experience level and the knowledge base of that handler is broader because those teams will supplement and actually have uh while they're working within a system, they're out on their own. Um, like in Las Vegas, DC, or Lewiston, Maine. These teams uh were connected with uh crisis mental health and the um police fire and government offices, but they were out working individually with individuals uh because they did not have the resources to handle the need. Um and so the latter two categories, three and four, uh since they're active providers, and I refer to them as providers because functionally that's what they are. They're providing mental health services, they fall underneath hip up. They need to understand um how the nuances of their body language, of their affect, of the energy, right, of how that to transfer that to a person. How to get that person to be a little bit more grounded, be more present, and then eventually stay in a position where they'll either accept a warm handoff to somebody, or we can keep communication and contact where a support system can meet with them. We let them know that we're concerned and we like to touch back space. Our job, if we're doing it correctly, is to enhance the existing systems in place. Uh we don't look to um do things on our own, but there are times where the existing systems get totally overwhelmed, and the especially the latter category of a trauma and a vegetanine are trained to do so.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

You know, Brad, I remember being at a debrief and there was a um you know a canine uh first responder there, and um it was just amazing to watch how um you know the dog was allowed to uh just gravitate toward whoever it wanted to go to. And when it um arrived, it you know, it was clearly someone that I had, you know, and other another therapist in the room knew that this person was struggling, like we could feel that, right, from our own you know, level of empathy. But the dog made a beeline for this person, and you know, he picked the dog up, it was a little dog, and he he started crying. And it was exactly what what he needed, I think, to kind of open the door to say what he needed to say, you know, in that debrief because he was ready to bust at the seams, but it took the dog to kind of bring the wall down, and it was done in such a gentle way, you know, and then he opened up and he was able to share what he needed to share. And so I was just just watching that was fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

And what you described is not uncommon. Yeah, you know, it's it's that watershed moment for a group debrief is important because it allows everyone to be human and to say it's okay to be human. And we've seen that just what you described at at many other incidents, um, and that's one of the things where the handlers they have their own little shtick, they have their personality, the way they work with it. That little dog you referred to his handler goes about it in her own way. And developing that is is something that is you know takes time and experience to do. You know, it's if we do our job properly, Stacey people look at us as if we're just talking to somebody.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Right, right. They don't see the deeper uh level of of what's happening. Um so You know, that dog clearly in in a very uh innocent way disarmed that first responder, right? So, what do you do in a situation where someone's afraid of dogs?

SPEAKER_02 20:12

The handlers are trained to you know, obviously look at body cues and body language to understand who may be afraid, and well, and at the beginning of a of a debrief or group meeting, we'll say, hey, look, is anyone here afraid of dogs? Anyone allergic to dogs?

unknown 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

You know, because we you know, one of the things that we teach at the higher categories, I won't want to say higher because each category is important, but at the latter categories is cultural competency, both professionally and well as societal and religious um components, because we don't want to inadvertently create a uh barrier to communication because we disrespected someone's thoughts, feelings, they're afraid of dogs, they're allergic to dogs, um, that sort of thing. So we try to we try to prepare for that as much as possible. And there are times that you know um people are uh uh afraid or allergic to their dogs, and they say, Well, I don't care, I need this dog here.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

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Voiceover 22:14

I want to just look at this from the angle of uh mental health clinicians. What would you like them to know when it comes to uh interfacing or interacting with the crisis mental health dogs like and and the responders who are affected by a critical incident? What would you like clinicians to know about your world?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

The tool that you have available to you is a wonderful tool, but it needs to be a proper resource for the proper situation. Um to have a therapy dog that's never been exposed to first responders or understanding what a debrief protocol is, to be there may do more harm than good because of very subtle, innocent mistakes. Um and also the the clinicians and the crisis counselors can understand the training of the handler so they know in a debrief, for example, my role is not to, unless I'm a partner directly with them, is to kind of stay back a little bit and watch everybody else and provide that feedback to Stacy or to another um facilitator because they may have been focusing on somebody, meanwhile, uh a person on the other side of the room nonverbals are going off the charts and no one catches that. But it is a resource, it's I equate it when I'm working with law enforcement to an officer who's great with kids versus a qualified school resource officer. Both are great with kids, but one has a heck of a lot more training to do that. And the same thing here, it's it's a tool. Um, I encourage um clinicians to reach out ahead of time if they're interested to somebody to get to know um that dog and that handler. Um everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Um get to know them so you know which resource is appropriate for the situation and the populations you're dealing with.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Are there any specific um crises that dogs are appropriate for, that people really want the dog there for more than more than others?

SPEAKER_02 24:29

The interesting thing is sometimes people don't realize they need the dog. Um, you know, when I when I helped out at Sandy Hook 12 years ago, I had no idea where this was going. I was just helping my neighbor. Since then, we've done um everything from active shooters, bombings, murder suicide, suicide, homicide, hostage situation, prison takeovers, airplane crashes, railroad derailments, um takeovers of government buildings. Um and I kind of sit there and and sometimes have a glass of wine at night going, where the heck did this come from? Um you know, so um children are are a very important um aspect where the dogs can reach quickly. But what we sometimes forget is that the staff teachers and administration sometimes have even a greater need because they've experienced the same thing, but they're kicking the stress bucket down the road because they want to make sure everyone else, kids are okay, the parents are okay, staff is okay. Um I will go up to a principal as we're wrapping up initial deployment saying, Hey, I want to circle back with you in two weeks, can I? And the principal will look at me, I go, you know why. And they go, Yeah. Because at that point, they can allow it to be a human and not a principal. And the same thing with command staff. Um, you know, they're taking care of everybody else, and so you know, we we don't want to forget that. But children's a great place to to have the dogs uh intercede with public safety. Um, a trusted partner can do wonders. Um you know, we um are part of several uh police departments and we're part of their team, and so they trust us, and when we go in, um it's you know, we're honored to be there, but it's it's it's easier for them to talk. The dog's here, okay. Or someone will go, Hey, is the dog coming? Um, in some instances we're only called out uh when there's been a tragedy, and we'll walk into a facility and someone will say, Who died? You know, we we don't want that, but uh you know, sometimes that's the only time we're we get to go out.

Voiceover 27:00

So, Brad, you touched on this a little bit with um the dogs interfacing and and how you follow up with uh teachers and principals. What other people outside of the traditional first responder professions um do you come in contact with who maybe we don't normally think of as benefiting from this um the crisis intervention or the mental health canines? Are there are there other professionals that uh fall outside the normal first responder groups?

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Absolutely. The the stakeholders that we have, and what I refer to as clients, because we're providing a service, um, is any place that a tragedy could happen. It could happen at school, it can happen at work. You know, we forget that Sandy Hook is also a workplace violence institution issue.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Um most recently to keep current, the Washington, D.C. American Airlines crash.

SPEAKER_05 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Comfort dogs were with the Washington with the peer team with Washington Fire, Washington, D.C. Fire. Uh, teams were brought in for American Airlines employees. And um teams have been working in Massachusetts with the families, the friends, and the community, the skating community up there for several days. And they've asked for continued support. And sometimes one of the things that we don't realize is that sometimes support has to go to where a person's at. Whether it's a police officer or whether it's Las Vegas or Lewiston, Maine, someone may not want to come into a crisis center for whatever reason. But they'll want support. In in Lewiston, Maine, we had a situation where uh a dance studio was located next to um one of the locations the shootings occurred. In a small world syndrome, they got my name and number because they knew someone from Sandy Hawk. And they said, We know Brad's up there, call. And that particular group of people did not want to go in to any place, they wanted to be with each other. And to and the the thing which made it even more dynamic is that that's a small community, so relatives of the shooter and the victim's families, their children are all taking dance classes together.

SPEAKER_05 29:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

And so that's public knowledge, so that's not anything out of school. Um, but um those types of situations, it could occur, you know, a large corporation could have an active shooter at their facility, uh, entertainment venues, whether it's Boxboro Stadium, the garden, uh, or you know, a music festival location. And so um, that's the other areas that we can provide support.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

And your services are free. You're a volunteer, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:05

We're free. The only thing, two things we ask is uh a good parking spot and and free coffee.

Voiceover 30:12

There you go. That's not a big ass.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Not a lot to ask, though. Yeah, we don't we don't charge, we don't take names. Um, because we are underneath HIPAA, uh our communication systems, emails have been certified uh for HIPAA, so we we've gone up to that level um as well. But no, we don't charge. Um and we and I don't care if you're Las Vegas fire rescue or whether you're a family that lost your child in a terrible accident, uh you shouldn't have to pay to to feel better.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Right, right. Uh I just have another question. Um, are there any unintended consequences of using a uh a canine?

SPEAKER_02 30:54

Yes. Um great question, and and this is one of the reasons why we got the conference together is that people don't realize what the dog can do fully. Someone may come in with that, they have a therapy dog that's wonderful with people talk to an impacted survivor, and that person emotionally their communication barriers have dropped. They're maybe more open to talking. And but what this handler does not realize is that that person's at that state, and then hey, I'm glad you've had my dog, I gotta go now. Well, you just left that survivor in an open emotional state with no warm handoff, and that's not a good thing. It's an unintended consequence. Or someone who's um skilled and doing some crisis or comfort dog work may not have the proper protocol to work with somebody. We were down in uh uh Parkland um for the uh Marjorie Stone Douglas uh shooting, and we were in a hotel, and some teachers and crisis teachers were just coming out and they were saying, Yeah, we just finished our training in mental health first aid. And my partner sitting next to me on the couch, who's also the director of disaster available health for the city of Boston, was like looking at her, and I'm like, No, we're gonna let them do what they want because mental health for day first aid is not the protocol to use after a disaster, it's psychological first aid or um is generally the most common. And so these teachers, and we've seen this with handlers. We get we've been trained in this where they just don't understand the nuance, you know, skills for psychological resilience or recovery, same thing, that's a longer term form, and so um you know, people are their their hearts are in the good place, um, but they just don't realize the unintended consequences they're leaving.

Voiceover 33:15

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SPEAKER_02 34:42

The acronyms were put in because that's what's called an all-hazards document. So the 20 individuals that helped contribute to it, um some of them knew some of the acronyms, some did not. Um I think out of the document um is that um should know there's a difference between crisis mental health and a mental health crisis. Same words, different order, different meanings. Crisis mental health is applied after like Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon, Parkland, Vegas, Pittsburgh. Um, a mental health crisis is where uh a crisis intervention team uh may come into place um with a different skill set.

Voiceover 35:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

The um other acronyms would be important would be psychological first aid. That is a very solid uh protocol that's universally used and recognized, and that's called PFA. Um in that and um you know, unfortunately, the the acronyms had to be utilized so the paper wouldn't even be longer.

Voiceover 35:49

That's great. Well, it's helpful and it's a you know it's a good resource. I recommend anybody um that wants to find out more about this that to take a look. And what's what's um where can people find that white paper? Is it available publicly?

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Yep, we're going to publish it uh at the conference, but then we'll we'll um put it on our website and and uh at uh k9fr.org um as well. But we're going to publish the final version for 2025 at the conference.

Voiceover 36:18

Um and since you since you touched on it, please feel free to tell us more about the conference.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

The conference is designed to get a lot of great people together to share resources, to network, but also understand there are different levels of handlers, different levels of service. And what's different about this conference is instead of people talking about this is what I think, we've actually bring in the end user. You know, we're bringing in from um California, uh Nick Arnett is just out of the Palisades Fires. He's a public information officer, curriculum's distress manager. He's what I call the beginning of the fire service. He has so many um credentials after his name, but he's worked with uh you know the comfort dogs of the fire service and the forest wild and fire service out there as well. We have a uh CEO of an educational institution coming in who's used dogs for seven years for crisis management, and we have um other people that have utilized the dogs to share their experiences to let them know these are what is expected when we bring a dog team in. Um, so I think it's very important that they understand uh the end users' um um expectations. And we have some programs like uh American Medical Response, their national program directors coming on in to share how their program was developed and how they operate across the country and at large-scale uh disaster areas, you know, as well. And uh we may have one or two more surprise um guests, but we don't have confirmation yet on those. But if we do, they'll it'll be very timely and very informative.

Voiceover 38:08

Okay, and for anyone who's interested, uh where is it and when is it?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

The conference is being held at UMass Boston on March 24th and 25th. That's a Monday and Tuesday, March 24th and 25th. Um UMass Boston has a beautiful campus. Um, they've hosted us um previously, and dogs are welcome. Um, just dogs are well behaved. And uh, but one of the things we're doing this year, which is different, is we're going to be holding tabletop exercises. We're going to take two to two and a half hours and go through four different deployment scenarios of dogs to schools from a single school situation to a mass casualty event. And to go through and have people realize wow, there's a lot to do here, and get that thought process started. So we're hoping that all attendees, when they go home, they have some back pocket skills, they have some information I think they can immediately use and be able to uh take their program to the next level if they want to.

Voiceover 39:19

Sounds great. Um, yeah, well, I've obviously we'll put that link up and share it in our notes. Um, Stacy, any final questions for Brad?

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah, um, Brad, what one key takeaway do you want the audience to come away with regarding um crisis mental health canines?

SPEAKER_02 39:39

That there are now basically four categories of crisis mental health canines. And the right resource needs to be put with the right situation. In some cases, they're hybrid where um at public vigils. um or gatherings, a comfort of crisis dog is entirely appropriate. But if you have a situation where um in Lewis Domain where the resources were totally um overwhelmed, then a trauma intervention or a can I first responder can be utilized at that. And it's not to the exclusion of one or the other, but you want to make sure that the most effective handler and dog team combination is put with the situation that needs the most.

Voiceover 40:34

Once again where can people find you website any other links you want to share?

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Yep, the our the K9 First Responder website is the letter K, the number nine Fr.org. You can find us there. There will be information on the conference posted there as well. The conference is being hosted um on Eventbrite. So if you look up Comfort Dogs and Public Safety, you'll find it. Okay. And really it just I appreciate the audience's time and attention and and hopefully um some takeaways from the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Well thank you for um educating us about this uh up-and-coming field you know I didn't realize it was so complicated and that uh it's so nuanced makes a lot of sense um and I I really enjoy your um your dedication you know to respond to the call and and um not for not expecting any pay you know showing up with a dog which in some cases seems to be um the most welcome part of a of a crisis response well thank you and when I when I started the white paper and it started off as three pages of just thoughts and then after feedback from 20 people etc it's a 19 page document which eight pages of it are acronyms and definitions but it it had to be that way but uh no we we hope that um people become also there are people out there that have wonderful ideas this is an evolving process so it's not you know I didn't stay at the Holiday and Express last night um so there's different ways to be effective and so that's what the the uh awesome part of the conference is is that um a different affect and then a different a different hook a different approach um can be learned because collaborative collaborative yep uh well Brad we learn so much every time we speak with you and once again I salute you for the the amazing work you're doing out there and evolving this incredible field uh to where it is and helping people the way you do so thank you so much for sharing your time with us again and thank you both for allowing me to share my passion remember like and subscribe YouTube responder resilience Facebook responder wellness think and responder TV LinkedIn Apple Podcast Spotify and please go to our website responder tv dot com for past episodes and guest information until the next time stay safe be kind to yourself take care of the earth