Clinician's Guide to Wellness Programs and Internships with Wendy Hummell | S5 E15

SPEAKER_04 0:00

You've got to have the buy-in from the top. It can't be something to just say we're checking a box, we're trying to get a grant, we're trying to say we're doing something. I decided that based on the research, some from the national FOP, that the best place to start with a wellness program was peer support. We have our in-house therapists. I haven't talked about that much yet, but that's another option, and that has been so successful. The trust comes from relationship building. And that happens outside of the therapy room. You're finally got the approval to have an intern. We have eight or nine people applying, and we're only going to pick one of them. But those other people that came, they learned a whole lot about what we're doing.

Voiceover 0:55

We're going to sit down with Wendy Homel. She's a retired detective, turned health and wellness manager. So if you're a mental health clinician looking to deepen your understanding of wellness programs and the unique challenges first responders face, and even the possibility of growing interns from within the agency, you won't want to miss this conversation. So we'll dive into the challenges of introducing wellness to law enforcement culture for supportive internship programs and how first responders can transition into second careers as therapists. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and check out our website, responderTV.com for past episodes and guest information. Our resource partner, Fight Camp, is offering an exclusive deal for viewers of Responder Resilience. For a limited time, you can get an amazing free package valued at $238, which includes punch trackers, quick wraps, and a free 45-day membership trial. Don't miss out. Email us at info at respondertv.com with the subject line Fight Camp to claim your free package today. This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at FirstresponderCenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. We'll be right back to speak with Wendy after this.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in crisis, while responders are quietly suffering.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

In this family, many struggle with job-related stress, burnout, injury, sleep disruptions, substance abuse, and relationship problems.

Voiceover 2:38

In this family, we can help the helpers.

Bonnie Rumilly 2:41

With vital information and resources, resilience strategies, and success stories of overcoming the obstacle.

Voiceover 2:51

Welcome to Responder Resilience. We co-hosts retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomley, LCSW EMTV. So we'd like to welcome back Wendy Homel. Wendy's a law enforcement veteran with over 25 years of experience. She started her career in 1996 as a special agent with the Immigration and Naturalization Service and retired as a detective from the Wichita Police Department, focusing on persons' crimes, investigations, including homicide and sex crimes. Currently, she serves as the health and wellness manager for the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Office, where she developed an organizational wellness program and supervises a 60-person peer support team. And she's taught numerous classes at conferences and webinars, holds a bachelor's and master's degree in criminal justice, is a certified yoga instructor, and is passionate about promoting holistic wellness among first responders. And in addition to all that, Wendy co-hosts the Guns and Yoga podcast, which was launched in 2021, aiming at providing support and resources for first responders and their families. She's also pursuing a second master's degree in counseling and enjoys outdoor activities with her family. So thank you for making the time to be with us today, Wendy.

SPEAKER_04 4:12

Thank you for having me again, David and Bonnie. I loved your podcast, and it's really an honor to be here again. So thank you.

Bonnie Rumilly 4:18

Well, thank you. And it's always nice to have a part two. Um and you're part of a select few. So it's really great to have you back to chat some more. Um, just for our listeners or viewers who weren't familiar with what we discussed last time, just a little bit of a recap. You've had such a diverse, wonderfully accomplished career uh in law enforcement. And I'd love for you to share with us what inspired you to make this shift from law enforcement into focusing on health and wellness and then now getting a master's in counseling.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

I could probably take a long time to answer it, so I'll try to be as succinct as possible. Um, but really, and I think probably like most others that kind of transition into this wellness space, uh, it's it really came from a person a place of needing it myself. So I would say, you know, over the course of my career, you know, I'm 56, so I started, I'm I'm definitely one of those uh suck it up buttercup days when I came on. We didn't talk about any of this. Uh, and when I say any of this, I mean just taking care of yourself, speaking to people about what might be bothering you, what we see. And it wasn't really until I was in like my mid-40s uh that things really started to make sense to me as to certain things that were occurring with me. Uh, physically and mentally, I had struggled with different issues, but I had also noticed that the people that I was working with, some of them were really struggling with mental health issues, addiction issues. And I didn't know how to help them and I didn't know how to help myself. And so I really started going down a rabbit hole of um just some self-transformation, learning how to help myself, excuse me, started going to therapy in addition to, you know, practicing yoga. I have water, but I think I'm all right. Um, yoga and meditation came into my life when I was about 40, and that really seemed to start helping me. And really, when I started doing those things, it wasn't for that reason, it was to get back into shape after having kids late in life. And I started to notice that it made me feel better in ways that I now understand. And so once I started to put all these pieces together, started to heal myself, I felt like I wanted to do more once I started to understand that um as first responders, we do a really good job of taking care of the community. I was dedicated my whole career to serving victims and the community and you know, putting the bad guys away, going to court. Like I absolutely loved what I did, and so do so does everyone else that serves alongside me. But we don't do a great job of taking care of ourselves, and neither do our organizations. And I'm not calling out one particular organization, it's just the collective. And so over the past decade, really, I started to really become passionate about serving, but just in a different way, more about serving the people that do the work versus the community, which of course we are part of the community. So I'd say that it really started about 10 years ago when I could really pinpoint when this conscious shift was made.

Bonnie Rumilly 7:24

And I certainly understand your shift because I've made a very similar shift in my life, you know, really, really focusing lately not on being on the ambulance, but in helping more in a macro way, because I feel the more first responders I help, it's then gonna trickle down to the patients. So, in a way, it's this collective macro. So I I totally understand. Um, I've had a similar process myself.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

Yeah. Yes, so you you understand.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

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Voiceover 9:12

You know, we could say if we build it, they will come. And if we create a wellness program, you know, we intend that our agency or department comes. But what's it like trying to get buy-in from police officers in particular to engage with wellness resources?

SPEAKER_04 9:27

How much time you got? It's a loaded question, David. Um, but but the first thing I want to say is that you know, it's it really has to start with the leadership of the organization because nothing's gonna happen without buy-in from the top. Now, there's a lot more that's involved. Uh, and the reason I say that, and I think this is important to say, is that I told you I started down this rabbit hole 10 years ago. I wasn't retired yet. And I really was trying to get some sort of a wellness program going at the agency I retired from. And at that time, it wasn't a priority for the leadership. And so there were a few things that I was able to kind of get going there. Um, but really in the end, it wasn't a priority. So um, after I retired, uh, the sheriff of, you know, I think you guys understand, like there's police departments and sheriff's agencies that are in the same town. And so the sheriff had been my boss previously at the police department. He also retired and then ran for sheriff. And he was looking to do something, he didn't quite know what to support the people at his agency. For an agency the size of Cedric County, um, we have had 10 line of duty deaths, which is a pretty significant number for an agency that size. And so one of the first things that the sheriff was noticing is that people were struggling around those anniversary dates. But then it really started to become a lot more, as you both know. And so when he had asked me after I retired to come work and create a wellness program, that's really the first thing is you've got to have the buy-in from the top. It can't be something to just say we're checking a box, we're trying to get a grant, we're trying to say we're doing something, as you guys know. He really knew that it was something that I had started to research. And so it started there. But I will be with full disclosure, this has not been an easy process. I mean, over the last six years, I'm really proud of where where we are today, but it has not been easy. Um for a few reasons. Coming in as a new person from a different agency, even though it was right across the street, you're still not growing up in that agency. So still considered to be a bit of an outsider. But more importantly, it was just this culture, we're not used to this concept of wellness and being vulnerable and talking about things. And so what I really focused on, and again, I really didn't know what I was doing. I just I relied on my research and talking and reaching out to people who are already doing these things. And what I did was we I decided that based on the research, some from the national FOP, that the best place to start with a wellness program was peer support. Um, because that was the resource that was most utilized and that the first responders, in this case, corrections and law enforcement felt um they would utilize the most and would be the most beneficial. So I really went all in for the first couple of years on really building a great solid peer support team. Uh, wrote a couple of grants, got the right people on board because those people then become stakeholders internally, and they're your support people from within and just getting the right people. So that's a big part of how I think this what led to the success of our program is that we've got the right people on our team, and we have a 60-person team, which is at least about 10% of our agency because we're close to 600. And those people come from areas of the entire agency. We've got administrative personnel, we have people that work in the jail, our commission folks, and we also have retirees that are part of our team. So I would say buy-in really was a process. Um, it didn't happen overnight. And, you know, a couple of years ago, I learned about something that I wish I would have known early on. It's called the theory of the law of innovation of diffusion. And basically it's a social science theory. I don't know if you've ever heard it, but it really just says that um trying to focus on the masses isn't always the way to go to reach that tipping point of when some when there's when there's buy-in in this case or whatever the whatever it is that we're talking about. And instead focusing on those, you know, those early adopters, those innovators, the people that are all in right away. And that's really um, I I learned the lesson the hard way, but I see now how that really works because focusing on the people on the team that are already bought in, I can see how now that's rippling out because those people are modeling, you know, and others are seeing the successes that we're having.

Bonnie Rumilly 14:00

So we have a lot of clinicians that tune in now, which is really exciting for us. Uh, we're trying to help them be more culturally competent and understand some of the nuances of each branch of our culture. This is really a question directed at you as a law enforcement officer yourself. Um, what are some specific strategies? Because David and I see the research, we know it. I mean, I certainly see it in my practice and when I go into departments. What can clinicians do to build that trust? Because that trust in law enforcement is is just to me the tipping point. So how do we help clinicians gain trust? Like what are the nuggets in there in your point of view?

SPEAKER_04 14:46

That's uh that's something that I think I can answer pretty well because one of the things that I did besides trying to build a peer support team was to vet culturally competent therapists before we had our own in-house therapist. And I did rely a lot on some resources that are out there for anyone. There are the FOP and IACP have a vetting guide that gives some really great information. But um I just started to notice that um we had an EAP in our town. And, you know, a lot of times EAPs get a bad rap, but we happen to have a really great one. In fact, it's where I'm doing my internship. And there were some people, um, some clinicians there that really had an interest in working with the population. So when you ask me about trust, I think the first thing is there has to be a desire to work with the population. And then next, the the trust comes from relationship building. And that happens outside of the therapy room, in my opinion. And what does that mean? Coming to training, socializing and attending training with our folks. And when I mean socializing, I don't mean going out and having a beer. I mean coming and coming to our trainings, coming to different events that we offer, going to squad, going on ride-alongs, visiting dispatch, touring, you know, hanging out with a sergeant in the jail for a shift or a half a shift, coming to our debriefings as often as they can when they're invited, because those are the ways that our people are going to get to know you and trust you. Just like anything else, it's just relationship building. And so I have seen um that's been very, very successful. And that's something that we really prioritize. Anytime I have a quarterly peer support training, any kind of wellness-related training, I open it up not just to our EAP clinicians, but also to the area clinicians that work with first responders. So I would say that would be the very first thing is is to really get to know the culture at a different level and not just in the therapy setting.

Bonnie Rumilly 16:43

That's great advice, Wendy. Um, and on our Fairfield County trauma response team, we're doing some of those things, which is really, really exciting. But um, I know that not everybody is a part of a team, and there are a lot of us therapists who are out there in an office alone, but they have the desire. So I think that's part of what we're trying to do here is how do we bring this information to them? So it's more macro helping, if you catch my drift.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

I do, and I can see that that's a challenge because I get people that reach out to me all the time from different areas of the state, and they're like, How do I do this? And so uh, you know, it is a little bit more of a challenge when there's no connection to an agency because cops can be skeptical of outsiders. We know that.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Absolutely. Calling all mental health professionals. Join us for the clinician masterclass series, working with first responders and empower your practice with expert insights and actionable strategies. Brought to you by the Responder Resilience Podcast. Dive deep on working with EMS and 911 personnel with seasoned therapists Dr. Nicole Navega and Bonnie Rumilly. Sonny Provetto shares specific knowledge and tools to support police. Dr. Stacy Raymond offers professional insights on working with veterans, and Dr. Robbie Adler Tapia covers working with firefighters in a clinical setting. Subject expert Elizabeth Paul covers suicide and psychological autopsies. Patrick Fitzgibbons does a deep dive on inpatient treatment facilities, and Dr. John Violanti covers law enforcement mental wellness. Get ready to transform your practice. Subscribe and stream anytime on our channels. YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Stay in the loop and sign up now at responderTV.com.

Voiceover 18:29

So we see a lot of a lot of the same thing in parts of the country, could be like in the Northeast, for example, where there's a lot of small municipalities that all have separate departments, separate agencies, separate programs, and and then trying to um figure it out from scratch, right? There's no there's no handbook guidebook for creating these kind of programs. So um so yeah, we do get a lot of calls from people who are looking for resources like you're describing, Wendy. And and I'm curious, outside of EAP, how do you connect with clinicians who might be a good fit for the agency and and for that matter, other say community organizations that might be good resources for your wellness program?

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Yeah, so that was it was a challenge at first because um it was a priority for me to find those folks. So, like I said, very early on, I'm for I was fortunate enough to be able to connect with our EAP and work with some of them. But in addition, in our state, we've got um a nonprofit organization called First Midwest. It's actually the sweatshirt I'm wearing. I did it on purpose. Uh it's it's a peer support organization. And one of the things that they do statewide is similar to the national level, is we vet culturally competent clinicians across the state. So you can go onto the website and there's a process that is that goes on just very similarly to what I I talked with you about, um, but but a little bit more in depth about um being able to vet somebody so that they get into this onto this list on the website. So that's one thing, but I will tell you that when I first started this out. There really weren't a lot of names in Wichita, Kansas. It was mostly the Kansas City metro area. So I had to do a lot of these things myself. And really what I did was I just started reaching out. I started asking people that were willing to share with me. Do you go to a therapist? Who is it? Do you like them? And it just kind of grew from there, um, quite frankly. And just doing a lot of, you know, meeting with people on my own, word of mouth, and then developing kind of this um list for a backup, lack of a better way of saying it, um, of different folks. So, you know, we try to, with our program, we try to offer as many options as possible. So we have a really great EAP that is very high utilized. We've got great area clinicians that now our insurance at the county has a very low copay. If that particular clinician will take our insurance, it's only $25. It used to be much higher. And third, we have our in-house therapists. I haven't talked about that much yet, but that's another option. And that has been so successful because she is culturally competent. In fact, she came from the EAP that I'm referring to. And so there's three different options. And so it took a lot of time, effort, and energy to get all of those resources in place, but it is something that's ongoing. And now it's not just me that's doing it.

unknown 21:21

Yeah.

Bonnie Rumilly 21:22

Well, talk about um what it's like with an embedded clinician. What are some of the um, you know, we've highlighted some of them in different shows, but in your point of view, what are some of the pros as to having that embedded clinician right there?

SPEAKER_04 21:37

There's a lot of pros, mostly pros, very few cons. So of course, it has to be the right fit. And um, so, and I will tell you that was a challenge at first because once we got the green light to hire someone, um, having the right person isn't always an easy thing to find. And so fortunately, the our current in-house therapist was somebody who we'd worked with for several years. She'd worked real hard on embedding herself, even though she didn't work with us yet, into our culture. She had already been seeing so many of the people that work at our agency. And all the things that I mentioned, she had been doing coming to training, building trust. She um just her style is, you know, in the therapy room, first responders really took to. She's, you know, obviously very empathetic, but direct and caring. And she just really, she, she, she was great, very, very popular. And so when she came in and decided to work with us, we really just kind of continued on with that. She had an advantage of already knowing some of our folks already because of that. But she, and she's still doing it to this day. She makes every effort when she can to go out and do ride-alongs, to go to other public safety um areas too, dispatch, EMS, fire, hanging out in the jail for maybe not a whole shift, but maybe for a couple of hours to kind of, you know, meet with the people in the jail, see what's going on there. And recently, you know, she went out to the range and she watched them do a couple of different scenarios and how that got debriefed. I encourage her to go to the academy and also be a part of defense tactics scenarios. Our entire wellness team, we all participate in teaching the recruits and providing psychoeducation. And um, we just started a pilot program because we now have an intern where we don't just do mandatory wellness checks for peer support team members, but we're also now doing them with recruits. So we're doing a lot of different things to try to put to put her out there so that people get to know her. And I think it's been very, very successful.

Bonnie Rumilly 23:45

Well, I appreciate you sharing all those things. And, you know, I'm thinking about if a clinician is listening to this and they say, gosh, that sounds great. That sounds like something I could do. I'm up to the task. I I love them, I want to work with them. Um, you know, not to focus on the negative, but are there cons then that people should also consider? Um, and that there might be just broader ones in general as to being embedded in one specific place. Could you point to some of those?

SPEAKER_04 24:13

Sure. I think the one thing that I would say, and like I said, there's not many cons, is that especially now being in school for counseling, um, boundaries um are really something that that are kind of uh emphasized in training. And so a lot of clinicians, um there it's a different type of relationship when you're working with first responders. And I've heard you guys talk about this on your show before, so I know you know what I mean. I'm not an at all trying to say that clinicians that work with first responders should um be unethical or doing things they're not supposed to do, but it's different. Our culture, we want to know about the person that's sitting in front of us. And it's not like to try to, you know. So, for instance, if if if our in-house therapist is in session with somebody and somebody's like, hey, can I know something about you? I mean, that's that's okay. They want to know those things so that helps build trust. And so I think that might be something that could be a consideration for somebody who may not feel comfortable having that sort of relationship with the people that they're going to be seeing in session. And again, I'm not saying you go hang out with them after work and you have a beer and you're you're best friends, but it's just a little bit of a more unique kind of nuance and working with that population.

Voiceover 25:27

As first responders, we kind of, you know, get to know people in a different way than casually, right? We're going into some pretty intense, you know, I don't know if intimate's the right word, but situations where we're seeing a side of somebody. So I guess as first responders, we appreciate if a clinician can kind of let us into their world a little bit, because give us a glimpse of who they are, and that helps to build trust and confidence.

Bonnie Rumilly 25:50

Absolutely. Yeah, this is another piece, um, because you're right, we talk about this a lot, and uh, it's so interesting just to look at this specific issue. Um at the end of the day, we don't want them worrying about us as therapists, but part of them wants to worry about us too. So, you know, if I'm running five minutes late to session and I text them, I say, I'm oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I'm five minutes late. And I come in here and I sit down, they want to know that I'm okay. They want to know that I didn't have a fender bender on the way here, that something bad didn't happen at home. So they're gonna ask, they're gonna say, What's up? Like you're late, that's not like you. What happened? And I could see a lot of therapists, you know, maybe just being a little reticent as to how much to share. Whereas there might be a day where I share, well, actually, you know, my kid threw a tantrum because wow, they're they're really struggling in eighth grade at the moment, you know. And for me to say that, they know I trust them too. And now they know that little piece, and maybe they have a kid and they say, God, yeah, doesn't it? Isn't it hard to be a parent? But here we've connected on another little level that seems very minor. Um, and maybe at surface level is minor, but for a first responder, it's not because you just gave a piece of your world to them. And there's a loyalty that gets built, I think, in not just the trust, but the loyalty that gets built in those little interactions is very important.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

I agree. And and I can tell you, our in-house therapist, she's part of the agency. She's part of our not just our wellness team, but you know, people really consider her part of the organization. So it's really important for that piece to be something that people consider because it is it is something that will really help you get accepted quicker into the into the culture.

Voiceover 27:44

So, Wendy, I want to shift a little bit into something you've told us about that I think is brilliant and innovative, and I want to hear more about it. You've got an internship program, and um love for you to talk about that. How does it benefit the department and how does it benefit the uh the students that are the interns?

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk about this. So um, one of the things that I knew I wanted to do early on, and I'm I don't remember where I got this idea. I'm sure I got it from somebody else. I just can't remember where I got it from. First of all, I knew that we were gonna need more help. So our in-house therapists, which this isn't a bad thing, she's very busy. And so most of what she does is see clients, but like I said, she also spends some time doing some of this, you know, going out and hanging out with everybody in their respective areas, doing some training, which we want her to do. We don't want her 100% of the time in the therapy room. So it was also to start to alleviate some of that and get somebody else on board to help see people. But more importantly, you know, early on, I started to notice that we had kind of a lack of culturally competent clinicians in our area. And some of it was that I just knew who they were. But I also started thinking, well, why don't we talk to people more about how to better serve this population? And so we finally started, you know, with the can't when you work for the government, things happen a little slow. So we were finally got the approval to have an intern. And so that entailed reaching out to all of the programs in our area. And in Wichita, we have four. Uh doesn't mean that we can't get an intern that may be outside of Wichita, but those are the programs that we have locally. And so just started to reach out. And the idea is this it's just simply to first of all educate. So even if somebody isn't selected to be the intern, we we just had a process yesterday for our second intern. And so we have eight or nine people applying, and we're only going to pick one of them. But those other people that came, they learned a whole lot about what we're doing. And I can tell you most were really impressed and didn't even know that that was something that was offered. And so it's to educate, but then it's also to let the person who gets the opportunity to do the internship get an inside look into our world. And I can tell you that we got really lucky with this first intern. She uh she's also a college athlete. And so when she came in to her interview, she um she talked about the, you know, kind of the connection and the overlap between being an athlete and being a first responder. And she's really, really been very successful. And, you know, she's a little bit younger, but we have a very young agency. And so it's also been kind of nice to have somebody a little bit younger who can relate to some of our folks, but she still sees people of all ages. And so it's to educate, but it's also to inform them and it's also to open their eyes. And so what's happened is that she's had such a successful experience that she talks about what she's doing with her friends and her, you know, her students and her instructors. So it starts to ripple out. And so now people um are seeking us out because they want the opportunity, this really unique opportunity, because we expect our intern to do the same things as our in-house therapist. All of the things that I mentioned earlier, they get to go on ride-alongs and they're like, Oh, I get paid for that. I'm like, Yeah, you get paid to go on a ride-along and to go hang out in the jail and and things like that. So if that's something that is of interest um to somebody in school, and it's almost too what I've noticed is that it's almost like they didn't know they were interested because they didn't even know it was something that was available to them. And um, and also, you know, the fact that I'm in school now too uh is I get to talk about what I'm doing with instructors and and some of the students. So that's another way for me to get that information out as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

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Bonnie Rumilly 32:58

Well, the neat thing is this is a growing part of our field in mental health. You know, the the need of first responders is surpassing the resources we currently have. So there are needs that I think need to drive this in the right direction, and we need more therapists working with first responders. But then the more that happens, the more that therapists coming out of school will realize, wow, I can do this. That that is a legitimate branch that I could go into that wasn't really there before. And the other thing we're seeing is first responders themselves, like you, having a second career and saying, you know what, I'm gonna take all that experience that I had and now I'm gonna help because I know what these problems are. I've had some of them, my friends have had them, and now I can affect change. So that's super exciting, I think, for all of us. And we're watching this wave grow, which is great. Um, and I wanted to ask you, we talk about cultural competency all the time. We throw out the term, it's going to be in our new book. Um, but we also know there are therapists who either are brand new learning the culture or or maybe just have decided not to jump in all the way, but they do it a little bit. On a scale of one to 10, how do you rate in with all of your experience the importance of having a culturally competent mental health person?

SPEAKER_04 34:22

So just in in general, if you're gonna go see any therapists and you want to know what their cultural competence is, that's a really complicated question, Bonnie. I know. Yeah, because here's here's I'm gonna play devil's advocate and I'm gonna contradict myself for a second. I have been able to meet a lot of really great therapists that don't necessarily, I wouldn't consider them to be culturally competent yet, but I can see that they have the desire to learn and they have the personality. So, so I'm one of those it depends people, you know. So if you have somebody, and I I'm seeing this from a different lens because I'm currently in an internship at the EAP, there's other therapists that are new that aren't necessarily culturally competent, but I can see that they have a desire to learn about the culture and they're very successful with some of their clients that are first responders. So I think it's something that even if at first you don't have it, if you click with your therapists and you like them and they're working for you, it's something that they can can build and grow.

Bonnie Rumilly 35:27

I love that answer. It's a very complicated question, a very hard one, especially if we have colleagues listening. Um, but I I love how you answered that. And you know, there's so much to be said for the passion being there. We can teach anybody how to do anything, but there are some people that we wouldn't be able to teach to stomach or deal with the subject matter, even that we deal with in this population. So I loved your answer. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

And it you're right though, that is that's definitely something to consider is are they prepared to hear those things?

Voiceover 36:02

To your point, Wendy, it's not the be-all and end all. There are um probably many first responders who have therapists who are not quote unquote culturally competent yet. They have a connection and the the therapy is effective. And so it shouldn't be a deal breaker per se, but obviously it's uh important factor to take into consideration.

Bonnie Rumilly 36:22

You know, the other thing that we haven't mentioned really ever is that um just because you're a first responder also doesn't mean you're necessarily going to therapy for first responder things. Now, yes, are the calls a part of your life, but some of the first responders are not plagued by the calls. Um, yeah, the shift work impacts their marriage and their ability to parent. So I think there's always that piece there, but there are also other people in the population that have strange hours and shift work. So um, although first responders may go to therapy, it may not always be tied into their work and their profession may be actually more in the background of their issues than some of the other things they're dealing with. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

That's a great point. And one thing I did want to just quickly add about the cultural competence piece is I've also met um and become friends with some therapists that have several first responder clients, but it's almost like their clients educated them and their clients made them culturally competent. They may not have been right away. So that's kind of another way to look at it, which is which is something we look at is you know, do you how what percentage of your of your client list are first responders? And and that makes a difference too. So there's just so many different factors that that go into it.

Voiceover 37:38

Yeah, another term I heard recently is cultural humility, um, which is, you know, maybe we don't know it all, we haven't heard it all, but just to be open, you know, curious and willing to say, I, you know, I need to learn about this, but I'm not an expert. So um all good stuff.

Bonnie Rumilly 37:53

You know, David, I I still do that every week. I'm learning something. I mean, even though we do this and the amount that we hear first responder things, and I am one, but I don't, I don't know at all, you know, and I so I think we all have to have that humility because every week we're gonna learn something different. And just because I know one police department doesn't mean I know Wendy's police department. I mean, there is so much to know, I think, for clinicians listening, keeping yourself curious is the most important thing you can do, and not assuming that the responder sitting in front of you has the same experience as all the others in their branch just because they have a title. Um, you really have to understand where that person's coming from and what it's like in their particular job.

Voiceover 38:40

Right. In their yeah, in their particular head, even. Yes. Um, Wendy, this is uh so cool that what you're doing, becoming, you know, basically a a therapist or a clinician in your life uh 2.0. And I just love to get your thoughts on first responders pursuing second careers as therapists. And this is kind of obvious in some ways, but how do their experiences kind of benefit them in that role?

SPEAKER_04 39:06

Yeah, I think in my case it's more like my third, my 3.0, but um, but yeah, of course, there's so much, right? Um, if I I mean if I reflect back on my career, and and I think it can depend too, because when we say first responders, that's several different professions, right? So for me, I can say, you know, I was a career detective. So I spent a lot of time talking to people, um, building rapport. Now, obviously, the intention was a little bit different. So I've always been somebody who's been very curious, just in general, about human nature. And of course, the focus is different. And I have been told by one of my instructors that um sometimes you have to stop being so focused on fixing in solutions and asking questions. Um, so I think sometimes our practical lived experience can be really beneficial, but also in this case, you have to sometimes rein it in and learn that you know things. Things are a little bit different in a therapy setting. Um, so I think what what's so curious about this is I just see this trend of first responders, a lot of first responders that I know that are not just getting into this whole wellness space, but also specifically going back to school to be clinicians. And I think some of it, it might be different for everyone, but I think people just see the need. Like I recently met um somebody she just graduated, and I get to work with her where I do my internship. She's a police officer, and she said that um she had some really negative experiences throughout her career, as I did too. And she wanted to be able to serve and help those in a way that was a little bit different because she understood. And so, and I think that's what a lot of it is, is that I think people who get into these professions, we have a servant's heart. And so that I think that's just a continuation in doing it in a different way.

Voiceover 40:56

Yeah, definitely. It's a beautiful way to do it. And um, well, we've covered a lot. Is there anything else we didn't talk about, Wendy, that you'd like to add to the conversation?

SPEAKER_04 41:06

I I don't think so. Again, I just think it's um I love your podcast. I truly mean that. I think what you guys are doing is so beneficial for the first responder community. And I listen every single week and I recommend you guys all the time. So I just want to thank you for what you are doing.

Bonnie Rumilly 41:24

Thank you, Wendy. We really appreciate the support. And for us, it comes straight from our heart. And if you listen, you do know that. So I think definitely you're welcome.

Voiceover 41:34

And we appreciate you uh as a collaborator and for all you're doing out there in the world. Obviously, you are um expanding your skill set in a way that's uh, you know, seems like it's just evolving constantly. And so I I really uh I really think you're doing great work and it's continuing. And I can't wait to hear about chapter 3.0 and what that looks like.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Well, thank you. I'll let you know.

Voiceover 41:56

Anything else you want to share in terms of um where people can find you, the any projects and offerings you have?

SPEAKER_04 42:03

So, right now, because I think I told you guys before we started recording, you know, I'm in school full-time and working full-time. So the podcast is on hiatus until I graduate at the end of the year. Um, I still do several webinars on Justice Clearinghouse that are free. And mostly what I talk about is organizational wellness programming. So if anybody has an interest in how to build a program, I have a course there and I do different webinars. Um, so I would say that's about it. I'm on LinkedIn. Uh, try not to be super active on social media these days, just because my time is precious. So, but I'm willing to share my email if anybody has any questions. Um, I'm here for it.

Voiceover 42:44

So fantastic. Is there a website that's active now?

SPEAKER_04 42:48

The website is inactive until this summer. So my husband's working on that.

unknown 42:53

Okay.

Voiceover 42:54

Well, if someone wants to hear more, Wendy, uh, I'm sure you can access back episodes of uh Guns and Yoga podcast, correct?

SPEAKER_04 43:00

Yes, and actually technically there is a Guns and Yoga website, but it's just it's got all the episodes. But you can go on Apple, you can go on Spotify, whatever, wherever you listen to podcasts. There's about 80 to 90 of them on there.

Voiceover 43:13

So fantastic. Great. Bunny, final thoughts.

Bonnie Rumilly 43:17

Uh Wendy, it's just wonderful to have you here as a colleague, but a resource for us. And uh, we really, really appreciate all the work that you're doing and hoping that people listening to you get even more inspired. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Voiceover 43:34

Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. Till the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care.