Clinician’s Guide to Working with Unique Fire And Law Populations | S5 E2

SPEAKER_07 0:00

So I just asked them tell me what's unique about them and their assignments that they're doing. So you have the U.S. Forest Service, you have Bureau of Land Management, you have Bureau of Indian Affairs, and then you have whatever local and state entities there are. And so it's a huge issue. If I do a post-seating debriefing, I invite the spouse. Because how did you find out? What are your concerns? There's many things that we can build a toolbox for our first responders. For anybody. We all need a toolbox to deal with life. And so the more things we can put in your toolbox, the more resourced and ready you are for what your career brings and life brings.

Voiceover 0:45

This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at FirstresponderCenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. Welcome to Responder Resilience. Continuing with our Clinicians Masterclass series, we're going to dive deep into the fine points of working with such groups as wildland firefighters and unique branches of law enforcement such as Border Patrol and the U.S. Marshals. Our guest is psychologist Dr. Robbie Adler Tapia. She's going to guide us through the unique challenges and stresses that these responders face in their work. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder Wellness Inc., and Responder TV. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, LinkedIn, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. We'll be right back to speak with Dr. Robbie after this.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

In this family, all of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

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In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in crisis, while responders are quietly suffering.

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In this family, many struggle with job-related stress, burnout, injury, sleep disruptions, substance abuse, and relationship problems. In this family, we can't help the helpers.

Voiceover 2:03

With vital information and resources, resilience strategies, and success stories of overcoming the obstacles.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Welcome to Responder Resilience. We co-host retired Lieutenant David Daschinger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Rumoli, LCSW EMTV.

Voiceover 2:32

We'd like to welcome back Dr. Robbie Advotapia. She's a licensed psychologist. She began her career as a firefighter and an EMT. And initially, she studied nursing before transitioning to psychology. She's the author of One Badge, One Brain, One Life, Preventative Maintenance and Brain Health Training for Emergency Responders. And her workshop haunted Educates Therapists on supporting emergency responders. Currently, she serves as an employee assistance provider for law enforcement, firefighters, and emergency responders, and she's the founder clinical director of FIRST. As an EMD art therapy trainer who was trained by Dr. Francine Shapiro, she's delivered training since 2005, spoke at a new numerous conferences, including Mdria, ISSTD, EREP, and the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation. Dr. Robbie, welcome back to respond to resilience.

SPEAKER_07 3:21

Thank you. Good morning from Arizona. Good morning. It's good to see you. You too, you too. Thanks for having me back. Always.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

So let me start Robbie by asking you if you could tell us a little bit more about working with the unique branches of law enforcement, such as Border Patrol and U.S. Marshals, any other branches that you have experience with. What is that like and what are the similarities and differences working with them compared to, say, the more municipal police officers or state police?

SPEAKER_07 4:00

Well, first, you know, there's as much diversity with any of these folks. About half of them that I work with are also military veterans, so they have that history as well. So, you know, it depends some of them are under state laws, some of them are dealing with federal and state laws, depending on their jurisdictions. So there's a lot of different things going on. And so in Maricopa County, where Phoenix is, where I'm at, there could be 17, 18 different law enforcement entities on duty at any point in time and trying to interface with each other in a huge city. Um, so we have that piece of it. We also have um in Arizona such diversity in our we have uh quite a few different reservations that have their own um statutes and so they cross over with that county um sheriff's departments. The other thing too is our with some of our sheriffs at least are elected versus appointed, and so that's the other thing. They're they're having to deal with political overlay. So the other thing is uh as one of the big border states in the US, and and I it frustrates me to hear people talk about all the border issues that have never actually been in a border, um, each county is different, and so there's a uh uh huge land mass in Arizona of of the border with Mexico that is actually uh federal reservation land. So that creates a whole different issue for our uh law enforcement and first responders. We are so also very remote in many areas that are difficult to get to. So with uh U.S. Marshals, uh there's just such diversity. It depends on what task force they're assigned to, depends on what their um their role is and what different roles they've had in their careers. Our Border Patrol agents. I happen to have family members who are Border Patrol agents and they have different assignments. Some of them are drug interdictionists, they have drug dogs that they're checking as all these cars cross the borders. The number of vehicles coming across uh the borders and and trucks bringing uh produce and supplies is incredible. So it's a huge challenge for them. And they usually uh live very remotely. Now there are some small cities, but most of them live remote, so sometimes they're away from their family. So with those different law enforcement entities, it's really having the client tell you what their experience is in law enforcement. I never assume just because I've worked with other Border Patrol agents or other uh different uh law enforcement in that agency or organization that I know. So I just ask them to tell me what's unique about them and their assignments that they're doing. We have interagency task force too, quite a few of those. So you might have DEA, Sheriff's Department, uh local law enforcement, state law enforcement. We just had a huge task force here because of being a border uh state, they're stealing four-wheel drive vehicles, so huge uh cartel ring. So the risk to them, because they're some of them are undercover. I work quite a few undercover agents with the different agencies, and so nobody even talks about that, you know, about being undercover and what's that like for them. So with all those different types of um practices, if you will, it's important to just ask them what's it like to do, what have you done before? Um, what's the parade of phases of the calls that haunt you the most if you ever get them in your office? I think they're much more likely to show up in our offices than maybe more uh unless they're wrong. Um we might see them more if you have to do uh some kind of some debriefing or something like that. But it's not a common thing to have them for me at least. We do have a huge uh issue with suicide rates for border patrol agents right now. Um I wonder other law makes uh the blacks for those uh border patrol agents who die in the line of duty. So unfortunately, um it's it's an impossible job for Border Patrol agents right now. Some of them may be assigned to when we were separating kids from their families, and I'm not making political statements. I'm just talking about what the the street level bureaucracy, the challenges for people on the ground. Um, and so having to keep these young children in cages sometimes in hotels with and they're having to take care of kids, and that's not what they signed up for, that's not what we're trained for, and that's been particularly challenging as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

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Bonnie Rumilly 10:03

Um, I would imagine that some people might be scared to ask, or they feel like they're being intrusive if they ask. But I think the point you're making is really an important one. If you don't know something, or we shouldn't be assuming as therapists, and even on this podcast, just because we have a lot of information doesn't mean we have it all or know it all. And so I think as long as we all have that growth mindset of constantly learning and looking at the individuals for what they have and what they stand for and what they have to do is really important. Um, I wanted to segue. So you've worked with a lot of different types of law enforcement agencies, but you've also done a lot of work and talking with hotshots and some of the wildland firefighters. Could you talk a little bit about some of that work and those experiences?

SPEAKER_07 10:52

So I I've worked with them a lot and I I dispatched uh quite a bit when I was working with the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation. And I happen to live in an area with uh U.S. Forest Service. Um, and half of my life it lives out in the mountains, and we have uh it's all the coverage is wildland fire. So you have U.S. Forest Service, you have Bureau of Land Management, you have uh Bureau of Indian Affairs, and then you have whatever local and state uh entities there are, and so it's a huge issue. Um, and it could go from a local fire to a state fire to a national fire very quickly. We saw that with Yarnell with the fire here. Um, you know, how quickly and and the communication when you're out in the in a really, really remote area is difficult. So with those folks, like the hotshaw crews, um, they're out in teams. And what's what's interesting, and I had mentioned I'll send you some pictures to see with a hotshaw crew because it's so different than structural or residential fire departments. You know, they're not wearing a mask, they're not wearing, I mean, they're out in really rugged gear carrying what they can on their back, setting up like um their camping gear where they're at, and they may be deployed away from their family for extended periods of time. I do have some pictures because there was a wildland fire camp about eight miles from my my house in the mountains. Um we had a huge fire. Um, and it came right up to about the the road next to my house. And you know, they're they're just doing amazing work in the in really, really remote and difficult areas. Um, climbing. They're incredibly fit, they're incredibly um uh just resilient. And so um when they're out on those um fires, they're camping. They set up whatever they they have, they set up these huge camps. They literally have their own uh mess halls and their own um police departments and their own um uh postal service, everything on these camps that they just roll out these camps. So I got to work with the rangers, so they don't have fire chief, they have rangers with the U.S. Forest Service, and and I could be wrong, so I'm sure there's listeners that are going, that's not quite right. You know, this is what I've learned in working with the U.S. Forest Service. So, you know, the the one thing you can count on is things are constantly changing, but the their ability to just go out in a remote area and and take care of something like we have a fire right now, which usually the fires were like summertime, like May to September, but there's a fire about uh 20 miles from my house right now. And so here they are out and putting these fires out. So sometimes they have land, you know, they're not necessarily structural fires, they're either ground fires or they're aerial fires. So we have the ashes in the air dropping on the roofs of the cabins and the houses there that are in a remote area. We had the tinder fire, I think was like 2018, 2019. I could be wrong about the dates, but uh we lost 40 homes in where I am, and um it it was amazing to see it afterwards. The houses that had um metal roofs didn't burn because the ashes, but the homes that had um other kinds of roofing um shingles, they burned to the ground, and so you see this landscape that's just like the landscape of the moon where everything just burned out in the homes, and then you'll see a completely pristine home, but it usually had a metal roof or some kind of system. So we had boots literally boots on the ground. You could see because in April in this fire it snowed. So we have folks from down here in a Phoenix area where it doesn't snow up there fighting fires in the snow in April with a wildland fire. So the the weather makes a huge difference for these folks as well. Um if you if you're interested in it, I encourage people. The US Forest Service puts out uh these reports called Lessons Learned. And I I actually learned a lot from reading those documents of lessons learned because they take in uh human factor, they take in the weather, they take in uh so many different pieces that I never thought of as a structural firefighter in a s in a town, right? Um, the other thing to think about is their water sources. Uh I remember what having to get water sources from creeks and ponds and having those pumps, but these guys are out where there's not water sources. So they're either having to backburn fires or they're having to put fires out uh with their axes and their their equipment. Um, they're just amazing. They really are amazing. And and then we also have aerial firefighters, which I've had the opportunity to work with some of those. We weren't counting them in any of our national services as firefighters, so they were considered contractors. I got to visit Missoula, Montana, and go into the Neptune, which is the company that fits all of the huge planes to dump the Surrey. That was really cool, but um, they weren't counting those folks in the air as firefighters. Um but some of them were, and so decisions about how to drop the Surrey, where to drop the Surrey. I mean, they're flying these huge planes 30 yards above the canopy. What amazing, amazing humans to be able to fly those planes that way. So we have the search and rescue, we have aerial firefighters, we have firefighters on the ground. Um, so coming at it from all different um kinds of directions to try to control those wildlife fires.

Voiceover 16:40

Just in that one area, there's so much going on, right? That unless you have that in your geographical area, you'd never know this actually exists or that there's so much to it. So thanks for shedding the light on that. Um, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about um first that words matter or terminology matters, but also this seems to be some controversy about the critical incident stress debriefing, whether it is actually effective or not. Can you speak to that and just help us understand in your in your view, is it effective and um how is the terminology important?

SPEAKER_07 17:13

That's a that's a lot to unpack, um but I'll do my best. Um so I got trained in CISD in 1984. Um, I happened to, in my master's um internship, work with a um someone who was my supervisor, and so we got trained and we dispatched locally, and then we dispatched with FEMA. Um, and I think when I'm doing some research right now as I'm doing an update on my book about the history of CISD and then CISM. So this so we saw that um come in. Everly and Mitchell started this these debriefings, which um you needed to be trained and you needed to practice. And so then as we realized just uh debriefing was insufficient, they expanded it and they added this whole uh process of CISM uh critical incident stress management. And and we see a lot of versions of it. So ICISF has the CSM, Everly and Mitchell. And when I look at what people call research, is I haven't seen any studies that are really truly research. Everly and Mitchell are coming out with some new stuff right now. I pulled up some articles over the last couple of years to reference them. But what I saw was you know, I'm a firefighter EMT now being trained as a therapist back in 1982, 83. And I saw um just people either do deploying CISD with no training, no clinical training, no training in CISD. And then what we saw was of course the suspicion of mental health, right? There was not that acceptance. We didn't even have the diagnosis of PTSD until 1980, but uh and then it didn't apply to anybody but military folks who saw combat and rape victims, and not even kids. So understanding the history of that is really important for people because here we're Everly and Mitchell coming out with this amazing stuff, but we weren't able to even diagnose our first responders with PTSD.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

Right.

SPEAKER_07 19:17

So as that unfolded, um, you know, people were trying to do these debriefings. I ran debriefings, local debriefings, uh debriefings at um for FEMA when people would come back from deployment like we have right now with the storms and Helene and all of that. And um, they were really powerful, but we were therapists and we collaborated with peer support. So when you had a trained, practice collaborative team, I think it deployed a lot better. I haven't seen any research that looks at the qualifications of the people deploying the services, right? What did they do? What was their training? And so you really need those variables to be documented in your methodology. Of any research study. Most people just read a couple sentences in the conclusion, but they don't look at how the study is done. I'm I'm uh have I do a lot of research, so I'm trained as a scientist practitioner. And so reading a methodology, I can't find any that really looked at who deployed it, how did they deploy it, and um you know what really happened. So we have a lot of anecdotal data. I looked at some of the people who are against it. Um, I've seen letters to the editor, I've seen opinion pieces, I've seen all of that, but that doesn't just is not research. So when they went and realized we needed pre-incident training, incident response, and post-incident follow-up, that became much more effective. So if we trained together and and the employees felt supported and they knew what we were gonna do, it looked a lot better. So then we had um the FBI looked at bringing it in-house. They started the PCIS post-critical incident seminars and started doing that. Um, we have those going on around the country, some states more than other states with PCIS, but those are run by um the trained CSM uh peer support. They're not run by clinicians. My understanding of my training was we work collaboratively. Mental health and peer support worked as a team. But we saw a lot of people pushing mental health out. We also saw uh what I see here is doing a debriefing and just pulling it out of nowhere, especially if we have a use of forced incident in law enforcement, is a um a dangerous situation, right? We have to look at what's going on. Um, we have a litigious society. So if we don't, if we're doing at the department with peer support, we have no protection for those people participating. So I tell people, you know, we now have both group and individual. So you have grin, so CISM Grin. Uh, there are times when you really don't need to be doing a group process with that because you have so many uh over like forensic or legal overlay of that. There was um a uh recent ruling by a judge, I think, in Boston, and uh Bonnie, you saw me. I I posted that, and and really he waived any kind of privacy and made these debriefing folks from a CSM testify. So looking at what your state statutes are, looking at um what rulings are there, and and just being really careful.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

As firefighters and first responders, we're brilliant at the basics. We master the art of stretching the line and we excel at being there for those who need us most. Yet, even the best of us can be caught off guard. We sometimes face unexpected challenges like injury, cancer, or post-traumatic stress symptoms. But you're not alone. The First Responder Center for Excellence is here to equip you with the tools and resources you need to stay informed and prepared. We help you focus on staying strong, safe, fit, and resilient. Optimize your performance with cutting-edge health, wellness, and science information. From fitness to nutrition, medical evaluation, health, cancer awareness to cardiac health. We've got you covered. Remember, we're stronger together. Discover more at firstrespondercenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. The First Responder Center for Excellence. Equip yourself with excellence for every call.

SPEAKER_07 23:41

Now we're trained in HIPAA, we're trained in privacy and confidentiality. But taking CISM training as a peer support doesn't necessarily train you in how that works. So are you doing the deployment of the whatever you're doing? Have you done training? Are you deploying a debriefing which are diffusing? What exactly are you deploying and where are you doing it and who's doing it? Those are the questions that need to be asked because if it's deployed by somebody who took a training but never used it, they're gonna be fumbling around, right? Um it's supposed to be a collaboration, mental health and peer support, and we're all trained and we practice together before we deploy it. I've gone in places um just to be like the mental health support for teams deploying CISM, and um they've they've trained, they have a team, they have great intentions, but they've never practiced. And I think that's the thing um that we have to look at is is you need practice. It's not something you can just read a book and go do it and be successful. So, in all fairness to CISM, um what's the training? What have you done? How much have you practiced? Who's doing it? None of those questions are looked at consistently in any research.

Voiceover 25:05

Interesting.

SPEAKER_07 25:06

So it's more anecdotal, it's how people feel about okay, I went I was told to go to one, and this is how I felt, so I don't think it works.

Bonnie Rumilly 25:15

Yeah, or someone has a bad experience and tells all their friends how bad the process is, whereas it may have just been the experience and the responding. Right. I think that's the one.

SPEAKER_07 25:25

Well, the other can I add to that? Sorry, Bonnie, I cut you off. Is um it depends on your command. How much support do you have from command? Is it being used as support or is it being used to collect data um to report out to command? And there has to be trust with command. And it only takes one incident, like you said, where everybody talks to everybody else and they say, you know, we were told to say what happened, or worse, we have command attend the debriefing um or the diffusing, and then nobody, you know, it's like, yeah, they're just here to um to spy on us. So it depends on how much they feel supported, how much administrative institutional betrayal trauma has happened in that agency department organization.

Bonnie Rumilly 26:12

So it it really, there's a lot of variables to it. You know, the other thing too is before going into a department, we've all learned it's really important to ask what the setup is and what the dynamics are behind the scenes there. You know, is it a department that trusts their command staff and their command staff is truly looking to support them and care for them, or is it more of a punitive system where anything they can get will and can be used against them in terms of getting support? So I think there are a lot of questions that clinicians can think about asking and should be okay with asking, because the more you know going in, I think the better prepared you are for the dynamics that also can unfold in the room in front of us. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 26:56

That's a um uh kind of an article I wrote that looks at what's our fiduciary responsibility. And for me, it was lessons learned. Um, it's more about what questions you need to ask versus, you know, people go in with the best of intention and a good heart, but they're that you know that can backfire. And and really building relationships. So um I have the honor of working with an amazing group of um, they're all law enforcement. One is has law enforcement trained as a therapist, and there's four of us that get to go. One of them was a retired chief who's an ICIF trainer. I love the opportunity, but we know each other. We've done this a lot. We've gone in, we kind of we kind of get what each one is going to do. But when you go in with complete strangers that you've never worked before and they don't know you and you don't know them, that makes it a lot more difficult. And that's why collaborative training, interagency support um in those can work really well. I've also invited them, and if your therapist wants to do that, is I've invited them to come to my office. I have enough room in a group room to do that. And I think sometimes you have to look at should we do it at an agency location or should we do it somewhere private? Um, and and I think that makes a huge difference too. I know a lot of people are doing these unofficially. Um, they'll get together at somebody's house, they'll get together somewhere. Um, because it it's the camaraderie, it's the support. Those are some of the crucial pieces of it uh that I think people don't realize. What was your role? Where were you on the scene? But this ruling, I think out of Boston said it was just about law enforcement getting together to get their story straight. So that's why he didn't support the CSM privacy piece of it. Um, I've seen it um just make a huge difference, and I'm gonna talk as an EMDR clinician here for a young man that I had been involved, I had heard the stories in the individual debriefings with multiple officers on an incident. And this officer was devastated because he didn't shoot, and he felt like he failed. He he believed that he was a failure, and I'm not good enough, and I can't be a law enforcement officer. Um, so knowing more of the story um from different pieces that I had been involved in in debriefings and also my force science training, I asked him a simple question in EMDR what was your backdrop? Just noticed that in the MGR. And he realized I could see it just hit him. He couldn't shoot because his backdrop was another officer. But that part didn't connect for him, and he was devastated, he was depressed, he wasn't sleeping. And so those kind of pieces, um, pulling that together, uh, I can tell you lots of examples of that where they have made all the difference for someone's um health and wellness and brain fitness following a really awful critical incident.

unknown 29:58

Right.

Voiceover 30:00

Calling all mental health professionals, join us for the clinician masterclass series working with first responders, and empower your practice with expert insights and actionable strategies brought to you by the Responder Resilience Podcast. This isn't your typical podcast. Dive deep on working with EMS and 911 personnel with seasoned therapists Dr. Nicole Navega and Bonnie Romoli. Sonny Provetto shares specific knowledge and tools to support police. Dr. Stacy Raymond offers professional insights on working with veterans. Dr. Robbie Adler Tapia covers working with firefighters in a clinical setting, and Dr. Kristen Weldon explores cultural competency and the fire service. Get ready to transform your practice. Subscribe and stream anytime on our channels YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. Stay in the loop and sign up now at respondertv.com.

Bonnie Rumilly 31:00

Can you pivot a little bit, Robbie? And you know, a lot of therapists are looking for some quick, useful techniques to calm the central nervous system down. I know there's a lot of um vagus nerve stimulation, use of EMDR, breathing, lots of things. Do you have a few in your toolbox that you like to recommend?

SPEAKER_07 31:20

Absolutely. In fact, one of the ones that people uh respond to the best is I give out paracord bracelets. Um you can buy bags of them on, and this is not does not require a clinician to do this. We're doing it in classrooms, we're doing it in groups. So paracord bracelets, you can either get the single strand ones, like on Amazon, there's bags of 260 for a little bit of nothing, or you can actually get the ones that are braided. Um, so the paracord bracelets are something you can wear pretty much in any assignment you're in, and we put an aroma on it. So we're we're hitting all the senses. So we got the paraclore bracelet, we put an aroma on, and we let them pick the smell, and then we install with square breathing, moving their eyes and uh smelling this paracord bracelet. So you can wear that paracord bracelet and like just wipe it past. Nobody even knows you're smelling the aroma. The aroma is the fastest way to calm down your um your brain to get that calming effect because that olfactory sense is a way that tells you whether something's safe or dangerous. And so they love that. I get so much feedback from people saying, I taught this paracore bracelet thing with the aroma, square breathing, and then we add a keyword. And once you practice that, that one's incredible. So they can have it with them all the time, they can practice using it to help calm that nervous system. The other one, there's a YouTube video called Nature's EMGR for racing thoughts. On that one, it has the water that goes alternating uh auditory, and so it clicks back and forth. That's another one that people really love. So I have low tech to high-tech. There's a lot of high-tech stuff, there's a lot of new uh whether it's EM wave or heart math or um just so many different uh more high-tech kind of things, neurofeedback. But you can go as simple as a thermometer where you teach people to really to uh increase their body temperature by meditation or an aroma and a paracord bracelet. So those are some of the simplest things anybody can do anywhere. If you are a peer support person, if you are working with these folks at all, um carry some, you know, take some mints. Most of my peers and pork guys will carry pockets of mints. So you you smell it, you taste it, you do the square breathing, and it calms the nervous system. So I have a whole bucket of of those Bob's big boy, like melt in your mouth mints. And um, when we run a group, um, the folks that are trained, you'll just see mints start flying across the room. They're throwing them at everybody, and they'll eat them, smell it, taste it, square breathing, and really calm down that nervous system. So uh those are really fast. There's a whole bunch of them, but I like when our peer support folks have those tools themselves. Um, I have um some uh folks that are voluntarily uh giving me um a fidget spinner too. So there's fidget rings, there's all kinds of things that they can the fidget rings, I see them, they'll sit and fidget on their finger. Um there's many things that we can build a toolbox for our first responders for anybody. We all need a toolbox to deal with life. And so um, the more things we can put in your toolbox, the more resourced and ready you are for what your career brings and life brings.

SPEAKER_05 34:48

So um I'd just like to jump in with a different topic that we don't really hear much about. Um, and can you comment on what should a clinician know about working with a spouse of a first responder and or the children of a first responder? What should they be thinking about, focusing on?

SPEAKER_07 35:08

I think it's a great question. Um, you know, um working with spouses is is such a huge thing. First of all, is the spouse themselves some kind of um first responder? So we look at that piece. Are they we tend to see first responders, marry first responders, whether it's nurses or social workers or um so looking at that spouse, um, you know, it there that's that's a great question and a very, very broad question as well. So just looking at um did they were they married before this person went in or they both went in, or were they did they get married after this person? One of the things I see is sometimes with spouses, they marry a hero, they marry their hero. And then if their hero gets injured in the line of duty and needs help, they're not able to reciprocate. And we see that uh relationships fall apart as people are injured in the line of duty, physically, uh brain fitness kind of stuff. And so um it's heartbreaking. So if if work is bad but home is good, or work is good and home is bad, but if they're both bad, you got trauma in the line of duty, and you've got um discord at home, that's very difficult. So um seeing people struggle with that is is heartbreaking. There are some great things out there, um, some books. There's the um is it code for? Um, and I have the books here, but I can't reach them at the moment. There's some great stuff out there. I married a cop, I married or I love a cop, I love a firefighter. Um really looking at how much support we give them. And it depends too on the department, it depends on the assignment. My mom has been a uh fire chief wife for 65 years, and it's all volunteer. But you see it, they just they make some adaptations, and some can and some can't, where you just know they're gonna go. So I was on the phone with them. They're 86 and 88, and my dad still goes to calls. Um, he he knows where everything is, he's got the keys to the turnpike in Pennsylvania, he he directs traffic, he knows everybody, he knows where all the fire hydrants are, all that stuff. So he um I see her switch gears. She knows he's going because he dispatches from home most of the time. And she just steps up and takes over. Many people though are um if if you're for example, if you're working for any kind of city or municipality, um you have to see spouses jump in and adapt because like here they're doing uh 48.96. So you have a spouse who's there and then they're gone, and then they're back and then they're gone in fire service. Um, so on one end, you know, you you have your spouse who's gone significant amounts of time around the clock. And so you may have to step up and deal with the kids. That's the same thing with our military who deploy. You know, you have periods of time where you're you're single parenting, you're running the household by yourself. Then that person comes back from deployment, now you have to adapt, then they go again. And so that happens um first of military, and then it happens a lot with our wildland fire because they they deploy. They deploy to a fire, they are gone. Um whereas structural fire kind of thing, they might deploy for 96 hours, but then you you you know where they're at. You could probably go find them if you needed them. You could talk to them on the phone, and they're gone, and then they're back, and then they're gone again. So um families have to be very uh adaptive to those kind of roles. Um, kids as well. Um I was used to my dad. I mean, you heard the tones, the hot tones in the the monitor, and we all knew the hot tones. That monitor has been on since before I was born, and the only difference now is it's louder. We have to tell him to turn it down. But you know, the hot tones go on, we all kind of shift gears. It's like we can ignore all the other tones, but that his hot tones, and you're like, oop, you just it's automatic, you don't even think about it. So that just drop everything. Dad's gonna go. I started going with him to the call, so I was, you know, we just drop it and run. Unfinished meals, um, missed activities. I remember the one time we made my dad not carry the pager, the monitor thing that he carries was um my sister's wedding. And so he wasn't allowed. I know it was hard for him, you know. As a kid, so I can speak to it, watching my mom, watching um some of My sister-in-laws and some of my nieces and nephews who have uh family members in military and public safety and fire. Um, but as a kid of a fire chief um and granddaughter of a police sergeant, now it's been a long time, but I still know now when I work with kids that there are if you're the child of a firefighter, they're heroes. If you're a child of a police officer, you don't tell because of the the culture of social media and everything when it comes to that. And I had this same incident because I'm old enough that my dad was a veteran, um, but a veteran during Vietnam. And so we didn't tell that uh he was a veteran. I remember how weird that was. So now it's it's it's good to be public with your parent or your family being in the military being a veteran. That's respected. It wasn't, but it is now. So our law enforcement are this generation's Vietnam um veterans. Um, and so just how the culture responds to that. Um there's a there's a joke people say if you go in a restaurant and there's a group of firefighters and a group of cops, people will spit on the cops and buy lunch for the firefighters. Um that kind of mentality, um, having your head on a swivel all the time when you're in law enforcement, um, because you don't know if you're even safe in your in your marked vehicle, if you're safe in uniform. So uh seeing that affect families and kids. I had a young man whose dad was in a shooting, um, uh a young man, I think he was about 14, and he was on the spectrum. And it was devastating to him when he went to school, and the kids were telling him that his dad was a murderer. And so looking out for that, what's it like? Having teaching spouses um about what they're going through, having support is important. So having spousal peer support is really important, but then also how do we help the kids deal with this? So I have a couple books. Um, we my kids helped me write some coloring books, especially for kids whose mommy or daddy uh die in the line of duty, or we have one something bad happened to me and my family, and it's a coloring book to help kids kind of talk about what it's like to be that way. I have some too where um one of my police officers, his son was at a baseball game, and um they there was a shooting, and they told the people at the baseball game that there was a shooting and his dad was in the shooting, but they didn't tell they didn't know his condition. This little boy spent hours thinking his dad was dead. Um so now every time dad leaves her duty, they come out, the kids come out, I think they salute him and make dad take a picture so they so they have a picture the last time they saw him. So being aware of that, what are they hearing at school, what are they seeing in the media? Um, and it changes from the when they're tiny to when they're teenagers and young adults. Um sometimes they follow in their parents' footsteps, other times they don't want anything to do with it, and they even hate what their parents do. So it can be a conflict between kids and parents. So I think that's the thing is is really um looking at if I do a post-shooting debriefing, I invite the spouse. Because how did you find out? What are your concerns? Um, I think the spouse or the significant other's reaction or the children's reaction to a shooting makes all the difference in how whether or not somebody's able to make a full return to duty. Because if the family is uh terrified, the kids are afraid, they're not slaving, the spouse is terrified, it makes it really hard. I the idea of your loved one going out there every day and putting their life on the line is something you have to kind of start to dissociate from. Um so, and then we just we just had a couple incidents here, and you see it also ricochet through departments, through groups, through churches. Um and so really looking out for it affects all of us.

Voiceover 44:17

Well, as we wrap up, I just wanted to ask you to touch on something which I think is gonna be of value to clinicians, and that's your workshop, Haunted. Um, talk about that and tell us like how somebody can access that.

SPEAKER_07 44:30

Well, we've recorded it a couple times. There's some shorter versions, there's some longer versions. I'm getting ready to do the two uh two-day full thing. Um, so to access it, I'll give you some of the links for that. The Haunted is based on uh a chapter I wrote. It's about the parade of faces, the calls that haunt you in the line of duty, and how to use that in case conceptualization with EMDR therapy as we identify targets for trauma reprocessing. And then uh with my book, One Badge, One Brain, One Life. And so I've integrated um in that uh book uh the haunted piece. So looking at the calls that haunt you. I hear all the time that people are saying I'll never unsee that, I'll never get over that. And and for us as mental health professionals is to say, maybe, but what would you like to try? Would you like to try this crazy eye-moving thing called EMTR because it can reduce the frequency, duration, intensity of your symptoms? I even have you come to a place of peace with um those calls that you just haunt you that in that parade of faces. So the book, um, the chapter is free online. I can give you that link as well. My one chapter is free, and I post it all the time for people.

Voiceover 45:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 45:48

And then the courses are recorded um in a couple places, and we're getting ready to do a new one that will be the full two-day course. So thanks for asking about that. Um, that there are not enough of us to go around for the need that's out there. So that's my goal is to make sure that our first responders, our heroes, have access to competent care. And you guys do a lot about with what you're doing with this podcast. So thank you for that.

Voiceover 46:14

You mentioned earlier, way earlier, um, articles that you've um had published. Um, and so can you share with us where people can find you in general and then where they might be able to find some of those articles you were referencing?

SPEAKER_07 46:27

The one article I wrote that looks at lessons learned, it's questions we should ask as therapists and looks at our fiduciary responsibility, especially to this population. Um, that's online. I can give you a link, David, that you can add to this. Okay. Um, my website is very simple, drobby.org, so just dr-r-ob-b-i-e.org. And I try to post stuff there, the trainings, um, just to help people, especially those of us, as all of us on this, uh, we have a passion to care for the people that keep us safe. And um, making sure that we have people who are able to be culturally competent and connect because the we've all heard of people who've gone to see a therapist and uh they it just just like CISM, they one bad incident and then they don't want anything to do with us. And so that's uh always a challenge for us to be able to build bridges and trust with this these folks. So um yeah, just to what I can do to help, and I'm happy to share that with folks.

Voiceover 47:33

Thank you. Bonnie, Stacy, final thoughts?

Bonnie Rumilly 47:36

Well, I just want to thank you, Robbie. On on behalf of myself, Stacy, David, and the Fairfield County Trauma Response Team. You're someone that we look up to. Um, you've done a lot of work with our group to help us be more culturally competent. And so we're really, really grateful for that work, Robbie. And we know we can always call you and ask for advice or opinions, and that means the world.

SPEAKER_07 48:02

Well, thanks. Um, I love that I get to do this, and I have really getting to know all of you in different ways and having those experiences has been incredible. So there's so many incredible people out there. Um, and that's part of the what fills my heart and soul is is seeing that how many people out there are doing the work that we're all doing. So thank you again. Happy holidays, everybody. And you too.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

Happy holidays.

unknown 48:29

Dr.

Voiceover 48:29

Ravi, from all of us, thank you so much for coming back and sharing uh even more of your deep uh experience, wisdom, and skill set. And I'm sure it's going to benefit um not only clinicians, but I think first responders and spouses and families to help them better understand um the landscape of the challenges that we're we're facing as a profession. So thanks so much for sharing your time with us today.

SPEAKER_07 48:54

Thank you. Have a good day, everybody.

Voiceover 48:56

Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube, responder resilience, Facebook, responder wellness, and responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. Until the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care.