Responder's Survival Guide: Stress Less, Forgive More with Dr. Fred Luskin | S5 E14

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Our nervous system is not meant to have stimulation relentlessly. And so one of the things that researchers starting to understand is that you absolutely have to take breaks from that. The world is weird. It runs on negativity. But there are debriefing habits like what went well? And who did you see doing good work? The pursuit of protection makes people miserable. You're gonna make mistakes and you're not gonna be perfect because none of us are perfect. Basic human qualities don't go away because you're a first responder. The nervous system is still the same.

Voiceover 0:45

Welcome to Responder Resilience, along with Dr. Stacey Raymond and Bonnie Rumoli, LCSW EMT. I'm David Dashinger. We're excited to have with us today Dr. Frederick Luskin. He's the director of the Stanford Forgiveness Projects. We're going to be diving into critical topics like mindfulness, happiness, and forgiveness for first responders, and we'll talk about the benefits of forgiveness for our mental and physical health and how technology can add to our stress and what it takes to lead a happier life. We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at FirstresponderCenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. Our resource partner, Fight Camp, is offering an exclusive deal for viewers of Responder Resilience. For a limited time, you can get an amazing free package valued at $238, which includes punch crackers, quick wraps, and a free 45-day membership trial. Don't miss out. Email us at info at respondertv.com with the subject line Fight Camp to claim your free package today. We'll be right back to speak with Dr. Luskin after this. In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

SPEAKER_08 2:07

In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in high risk, while responders are quietly suffering.

Bonnie Rumilly 2:20

In this family, many struggle with job-related stress.

Voiceover 2:29

In this family, we have helped the helpers.

Bonnie Rumilly 2:32

With vital information and resources, resilience strategies, and success stories of overcoming the obstacles.

Voiceover 2:42

Welcome to Responder Resilience. We co-host retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacey Raymond, and Bonnie Rimley, LCSW EMTV. We'd like to welcome a very special guest, Dr. Frederick Luskin. He's a psychologist at Stanford University with 30 years of teaching experience and a PhD in counseling and health psychology. Dr. Luskin is one of the world's recognized authorities on forgiveness, both of self and others, and has taught forgiveness to tens of thousands of people. Currently, he focuses on mindfulness, emotional intelligence, psychological safety, and positive psychology. And outside of Stanford, he speaks to various professionals and serves as director of Stanford University Forgiveness Projects, which supports research on his nine steps to forgiveness. Fred, my old friend, welcome to Responder Resistance.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 3:42

So, Fred, I'd like to um start by asking you, um, or just pointing out that we know that first responders are susceptible to feelings of resentment, right? This could be due to the demands of the job, the culture of the workplace, and maybe even leadership. So, what strategies do you recommend for first responders to uh increase their emotional awareness, prevent feelings of resentment in their work?

SPEAKER_03 4:09

You know, the whole human race has a tendency to resentment. And um that that's an important consideration, that part of us we're wired, we're hardwired for threat and protection. And so since the people you work with are knee deep in threat and their their job is to protect, um, it doesn't surprise me that they would activate whatever response that creates resentment. Um resentment isn't of itself dangerous. I mean, if if you can keep it moderated, it's a nice buffer sometimes between what you're experiencing and the reality of what you can do about it. You know, like I mean, I I I've done forgiveness work in you know, really horrible, not horrible places, but places with a lot of suffering. And um it's a tough, it's just tough. I mean, you're not you know, you know, you're not gonna do the job that that that that you you're working with without some emotional consequences. That said you have to look at like the question of habit. So there's nothing wrong with creating some resentments. The training can be in training other habits like appreciation, comradeship, um, self-forgiveness. You can teach people to be more grateful, you can teach people to find more beauty. This doesn't eliminate resentment, but it helps keep it a little bit in perspective, and you can teach people skills to flat out appreciate the hell out of what they and the people they're working with do. So, you know, some some debriefing habits, uh you know, the world is weird, it runs on negativity, but there are debriefing habits like what went well, and who did you see doing good work, and and and where did you see success? Because there's so much of it in what you guys do, just so much of it. Yeah, the other piece, and and this is me 30 years into an experience. I'm gonna say that people who work in the jobs that you do need some kind of regulation, self-regulation, meditation, mindfulness, some kind of practice daily. It should be required at every station house, whatever it is, they need to go inward and quiet down and cultivate those brain patterns of safety and receptivity. Because mostly, you know, you're talking about to me, really challenging work. And if you don't have like a five minutes in the morning and a five minutes in the evening mindfulness or heartfulness practice, you're going, you're going out there much more vulnerable than is necessary. So that that's uh an answer to you as best I can.

Bonnie Rumilly 7:59

Well, in thinking about this topic of resentment, there to me, what I see in my practice is resentment of others, resentment of the agency, resentment of those who are above me or that that is above me. Um, but there's also that self-resentment that is pervasive in all branches of first responder world. How can I put blame on myself, assume guilt, resent myself for things that could have gone differently or didn't? Um, and that I think is hardwired in first responders to assign resentment to thyself. And that's something that Stacy and I spend so much time with EMDR helping people get rid of that and work through that. So, do you have any specific tangible thoughts, advice on the self-resentment piece?

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Again, you want to be careful not to overly join who's ever coming at you in their content. Like resentment is a basic human quality. Everywhere there's resentment. It is healthy in short doses, not healthy long doses. I know the people that you work for and with, they operate in a tremendous amount of adrenaline, just a an overwhelming amount of adrenaline. That in and of itself triggers, you know, brain qualities that make resentment so much easier. I mean, you know, adrenaline is focusing your attention on what's wrong, it's endlessly bringing the mind and the nervous system to a direct focus on what's wrong to try to make it better. So their job itself is is not just hard physically and emotionally. In terms of self-resentment, I mean you can take a cognitive approach in part, which is nobody's perfect. You can't be perfect, you're gonna make mistakes. There's that cognitive permission giving and acceptance of flawed humanity, which has to be part of what your work is. Just like physicians, you know, you're gonna make mistakes and you're not gonna be perfect because none of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes. Secondly, again, there has to be some body-mind quieting. Like you can't just send people out with adrenaline rushes and not teach them the psychophysiologic skills that quite adrenaline rushes. And if they're not interested in meditating, they could do progressive muscle relaxation for 15 seconds to just you can't allow the human body to just be adrenalized and then cortisol all over the place, right without expecting consequences. It's it's it's unfair. Um, some basic education into the nervous system would be helpful, you know, like all this adrenaline is to protect you, but you know, you have some role in this. Like, you know, your nervous system is this adrenaline stuff is not to hurt you, but you're running into stress, so it's here to protect you. Well, you know, when you get off your job, you may have to be really careful to disengage and to let it go and make sure you have a really good diet and go for a run, like everybody else has to. Right. But the the essential self-forgiveness piece is you're imperfect, you're human. If you actually did something which harms somebody, which is different than just not meeting exacting standards, that may need to be addressed with you know talking to one of you, but it can also be addressed by remorse, not resentment. If you did something wrong and you harmed somebody, remorse is a positive quality. Yeah, you're owning the pain of causing others pain. And then if there's any way or anybody that you can apologize to, do so. You know, if if you failed, say you're sorry, if you failed, and a coworker had to assume an extra burden for you, apologize, make amends, say I'll do I'll I'll do 10 more qubits for you next time because you did 10 for me. But basic human qualities don't go away because you're a first responder. Like the nervous system is still the same, right? And and for self-forgiveness, there's that need for remorse, apology if needed, um, some degree of amends if can be made, and if it's a bad habit, get help.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

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SPEAKER_08 14:49

So my concern, Fred, is, you know, you know, you said doctors, even doctors make mistakes, first responders. You know, we live in such a litigious uh area, especially in Connecticut. You know, it's there's I think it's hard for certain professions to say that there's any wiggle room to make. And and so that concerns me. And also with um first responders, there's uh you know, what's my command stuff? If I make a mistake, if I don't, you know, do everything that I'm exactly supposed to do, and we know that there's hidden behind when you're in an adrenaline, your physiology doesn't really perfectly concern me. I can hear what you're saying. You know, I don't know if you can if you can elaborate on that. You know, the the idea of a litigious society and the fear of what command staff is gonna think about the fact that I, you know, I I perhaps was unable to follow everything in a procedure.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Um there is no human cure for imperfection. And you can feel bad about that or good about it, but whether you whether you want to be perfect or not and never make mistakes, you're gonna. Healthier organizations have better ways of dealing with people who make mistakes. So I agree. I I have a friend who works for the Nuclear Regulatory Committee, and they can't have any mistakes. No, they can't. But they have scrupulous policies of how they deal with it. You know, they they they have somebody debriefed, they they remind them of the popper policy, they they are really careful, but they're not harsh. And and that's that's one piece. But the piece I'm gonna push back on with you is I'm not I'm not convinced that anxiety and fear over strict or harsh environments makes you less likely to make a mistake. That the more anxious you are about making a mistake, the more likely you are to make one. Because and so even the simplest mindful practice, like I'm feeling resentful or I'm feeling anxious, just the bringing it from gut to cognition can help people dramatically, even if they're just taught to put words to what you're experiencing, talk to yourself. Wow, you're going into a situation which is ambiguous, you're running at a fast pace. I'm feeling anxious about this. That in and of itself gives them a little more cognitive control.

SPEAKER_08 18:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

So I'm articulating for helping people maintain a smidgen of cognitive control in a highly challenging environment. Smidgen, yeah.

Voiceover 18:16

I wanted to I wanted to kind of jump on something you were talking about earlier, and hopefully it circles back to what we just we just discussed, and that's that fight or flight and not feeling safe, um, feeling like you know, a threat. I've heard you speak uh and do some meditative work with um sort of a soft belly breathing exercise. Can you speak about how that's important and how does that kind of change our physiology to get us out of that stress mode?

SPEAKER_03 18:45

I I have no doubt that the three of you are describing to me a highly stressed and and threatening environment for people to work in. That said, that makes it more incumbent for the people working there when they're not at work to practice safety practices. So one safety practice is put your phone down, you know, bury it and go put, take your kid, put him on your lap, and tell him you love him. Stare at your kid's face, memorize it, bring it into your heart, and feel safe. That would be your practice. Take a walk in nature for 15 minutes, that will help you feel safe. Have a gratitude list every single day. Think of three things that people did to you that was kind that will make you feel safe. And again, I'm convinced beyond measure that the people working in the jobs that you're describing. Need meditation, guided imagery, something to deliberately help them calm their bodies down so that they gain some measure of cognitive control over it. What David's talking about is, you know, I don't teach people who are in the same difficulty that you are, but I work at the Graduate School of Business here with highly stressed executives from all over the world. And while even they wouldn't be arrogant enough to think it's as difficult as what you're dealing with, they have a lot of stress. So one of the practice always we start a meditation with something like sit down, bring your attention inward, quiet for a moment, and then in whatever way you can remember that right this moment you are safe. As safe as you can be as a human being. You have food, you have clothing, you have shelter, you have running water, and right this moment you're okay. Right this moment. That's a practice. You have to prime your body to have alternative responses to fight or flight. It doesn't come by accident because fight or flight is, you know, our protective mechanism to save our lives. And you folks are running into situations which the rest of us run away from. But that requires more practice, not less.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

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Bonnie Rumilly 22:50

So during COVID, I was doing a lot of thinking about some of the things that you're actually saying. I just wasn't naming them in the same way that you're naming them here. But what I found very helpful for myself was also setting intentions for the day. So before going to a shift, I would take those five minutes and instead of doing like a mindfulness gratitude practice, I was doing more of a setting intentions and expectations of myself and those around me for the day. And just saying, you know, let me do the best possible thing that I can do as a human being. You know, let me just be my best today. And it doesn't mean that I'm making a promise to be perfect or that nothing's gonna go wrong because that's just not the work. Things go wrong. Um, but if someone sets their own expectations that no matter what goes wrong, they will do their best, then for me, that helped to mitigate some of this rumination after the fact. And so it's something that I've started to work with clients on and in really encouraging them to start setting their intentions or having some kind of a mantra. What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_03 24:04

I'm gonna I'm gonna be a professor person and break it into two parts. One is there's a lot of research, not a lot, enough research out there that setting the intention to be happier and have a good day is one of the things that distinguishes happier from less happy people. That intention is so powerful. Um, and that the the people who again have tend to have the best days, wake up in the morning, don't grab their phone first, don't jump into all the stress of their day, but stop for a minute and two and say, you know, I want it, I want to do good work, I want to help people, but ultimately I want to survive this day with my heart and body intact. I want to be, I want to have a decent day. So that's one, and that's research established. The second gets back to what I responded to Stacy, which is that the pursuit of perception makes people miserable. The pursuit of excellence is a far better and happier producing pursuit, and there's a lot of research on that. I'm the mindfulness teacher for three Stanford sports teams, and this is a lot of what I teach them. You're gonna you're gonna lose games and you're gonna make mistakes, and you're gonna make a shot every now and then that looks ridiculous. You never ever will be perfect, and even if you win tomorrow, you may lose. But if you make it your goal of doing the best you can and have the humility to learn from whatever it is you make a mistake from, then you will grow. If you go out there and say, I can't miss, I have to do that, you're just showing a kind of desperation, sure, which in and of itself is disabling. So, Bonnie, I'm just translating it into social science. But um, those are two really excellent things, and I would suggest you amplify them in when you teach the people you work with.

Voiceover 26:32

I want to just jump back to something you you mentioned in passing, and I I know you've spoken about this at length, and that has to do with um the role of technology and stress. You you mentioned the cell phone, but also first responders are highly um bombarded by information, could be from radio traffic, the mobile data terminals, the um, you know, arriving on scene, getting a lot of information from different people in a very emergent situation. Speak a little bit about uh technology stress, especially cell phones, because that's something we all have. What is what is that? What do we need to know about that?

SPEAKER_03 27:07

I mean, we're we're all in an experiment of how much stimulation we can take without cracking, all of us.

SPEAKER_08 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

And and when you said that, my heart went, ooh, that would be tough to I've seen the you know, with the squawking and the I know now you have like iPads or whatever that have you know shooting information at you. So that's a very high stress environment. Um one of yes, it's it's our nervous system is not meant to have stimulation relentlessly. It is just not meant that way. And and and so one of the things that the world, not the world, but research is starting to understand is that you absolutely have to take breaks from that. That no matter how you do it, like once an hour or once every two hours, you need to turn that off. Whether it's just if you're in an automobile, you know, you need to pull over, take a walk for a minute, and come back in. But your nervous system needs resets, otherwise, it just escalates. And without resets and some balancing, again, this is not what we're meant to endure. Um, the cell phone and other technology are really messing with our neurotransmitters and our ability to get pleasure from normal life. And you know, so in some ways, I imagine that that's an endemic cost of your job, is the amount of adrenaline generated by the work that you do would really diminish the brain's capacity to handle stuff and lower the capacity to enjoy one's life. I mean, unless you take steps to manage that, that's tough. Secondly, if you have a job that is that stressful, you would want to manage technology when you're not at that job so that the phone and the iPad are not pulling at adrenalized responses often during the day. The second, though, is what the cell phone does to the dopamine system, which is the anticipatory pleasure system. When we have too much quickly available to us, like slight pleasure initiating dopamine, we lose some of our ability to find pleasure in real life because the dopamine receptors get um taken up by by these shallow nothings. So, again, what what you're telling me is the system that that these people work in is not always good for their health, and they have to work harder when they're not in that system or even during the system to protect themselves. That seems like just reality.

SPEAKER_08 30:37

Um, Fred, you know, it almost seems silly to ask this question because I think everything that you've been talking about answers it. But you know, the question is why is happiness so difficult? So we know why it is difficult, right? With with um not being able to just sit in quiet or sit in gratitude, sit in self-forgiveness. So, what is it that first responders can do to move closer toward attaining some bit of happiness?

SPEAKER_03 31:14

There, I mean, I you know, it's interesting when you said that because there are really two paths to happiness. Um, one is that present-centered life is good. The the best definition of happiness I've seen is wanting what you have.

SPEAKER_08 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Um, but the second path to happiness is purpose. And the the first responders would have an enormous capacity for cultivating great purpose, and they can be instructed to understand how much I'm gonna say even love is in their purpose. Yeah, they do tremendous good in this world and risk themselves. And if they could like not just connect with the stress of what they do, but the deep care and purpose in what they do, and be taught to have different stories about what they do. Like their meta story could be oriented, and we're great human beings you are. Look at look at what you do for your community. Look at the look at the care you show when you go running in and save somebody in a car. I mean, that's remarkable. Right. But because of the stress response, we have to train ourselves to find this part of ourselves. But they have such deep purpose, and and they are doing a job which shows such deep care and commitment that those could be utilized to create happiness maybe more easily than peace-loving granola in the moment.

SPEAKER_06 33:04

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Bonnie Rumilly 34:08

You know what's interesting? There's almost a visceral reaction against what you just said in our population. I think some people can embrace the purpose and feel good about it and own it. And those are the ones who have better self-esteem and confidence. But there is a large percentage of them who have a visceral reaction even to that word hero. Like if a civilian uses that word. So there's so much deprogramming and reprogramming that has to happen, I think, um, in what you just said, but it's a great point. And I don't think first responders think about this enough. There's just that reaction to people thinking they're different. Um, but they don't go much deeper generally into that. So I like what you're bringing up.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

The research is that so many real heroes do not want to be called heroes, right? That um when they would ask people, like, you know, that guy, this the guy Sully, who drove the plane into the East River, yeah, he said, it's my job. And and when they interviewed or looked at the really small number of people who actively resisted the Nazis in World War II, they did not want any designation of hero. They just wanted, hey, I did what anybody would do. This is what my parents taught me. So you want to be careful pushing that idea of hero. Um, there are a lot of people out there who do good because they do good, but but it's not comfortable to push it into more than that because they're doing what their ethics and their you know, their training give them. So I'm gonna caution that because it's not always a good thing for people to hear. Let me give you one other thing, though, is the this is a meditation that that I use, but I want you to each do it for a moment. You don't even have to close your eyes, just keep your eyes open and just take two breaths into and out of your abdomen, just two breaths, deep and slow, just two breaths, but relax your abdomen so that you're not tight when you're breathing. You know, that's the whole point. And then bring an image to your mind's eye of someone you love. Just bring an image here of to your mind's eye of someone you love and picture them about as lovable as you can make them. You know, if delicious kid, whatever, long-term partner, anybody, just the delicious and then see if you can bring a little of that to your heart. Even the most tough guy softens with that. So if you do something like this first, they can hear you. Right. You have to work with the mind body, not just the mind or not just the body, but something like that, or ask them to tell you uh uh like a story about their kid or when they met their partner or whatever, but we can't access other parts of ourselves until we un like untighten our resistance, and you know, you're you're normal, healthy people, so it took three breaths, but some people may take 10 minutes, but almost everybody who's doing the kind of work they're doing with such a pro-social thing can quiet and then oh, I get it now. There's a safe place in me.

Voiceover 38:39

Thank you for sharing all that. I'm so glad you were able to uh share that breathwork meditation with us because uh I've heard you do something similar and I love it. So appreciate that. As we're wrapping up, I'd love you to share about your books. You're prolific author. You've got a few books about forgiveness. Um, and I know you've got a new one that's coming out or just came out. Please tell us about that.

SPEAKER_03 39:02

I mean, we didn't talk that much about this, but my my work for the last 30 years in part has been teaching people to forgive. And I shared with you some of the practices and the philosophy behind it. But um, you know, I I have written I have written books. I've taught people in really difficult situations to forgive. The the essence of it is again, and this is another lesson, you wanna you want to grieve and deal with your past, but you don't want it to hold you back. I mean, that's probably the the distinction. You can't ignore your past. So if some of the people you work with have real struggles, you can't just, you know, it doesn't go away and you can't tell them it'll be a better day tomorrow. You have to work through stuff. But after a while, you don't want the past to be. dominating your future. So that's the essence of forgiveness. The book I just wrote and it just came out is a workbook called the Forgive for Good workbook. And it's it's a lot of it's on self-forgiveness. It's it's target audiences, people recovering from addictions, but it's it's a general workbook and um it's generic. We we we don't take individual issues. We're interested in forgiveness or compassion writ large, you know, just as human qualities. So everything we do is like well this is normal for the human. It emerges in different situations, but it's normal. And so the workbook we just did is basically taking the 20 or so years we've been doing this and making it as easily and practical as possible.

Voiceover 41:02

So that's fantastic. And you've got a series of other books Forgive for good forgive for love and stress free for good so we'll post those on the the screen and and the the links for the episodes people can find that.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Thank you.

Voiceover 41:17

Well this has been fantastic uh connecting with you on this platform and and having you share your wisdom and expertise with the first responder community I wanted to share my appreciation for that and um just let us know where people can find you any uh any social media website.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

I mean I have a website Fredluskin.com um you know but uh there's probably so many YouTube videos and stuff um yeah I've been a semi-public figure for a while um but you know I admire what the people you work with do and so I'm um if I could have been of any use I'm I'm really delighted because there's a lot of people out there doing work a lot harder than what I do and you know you really want to keep that in mind.

Bonnie Rumilly 42:14

Well it's been great talking to you and and hearing you translate things into your language is very helpful I think for us and also our viewers and listeners.

SPEAKER_08 42:24

So thank you very much for sharing your wisdom and Fred I I just appreciate your genuineness like your heart is definitely in this and you break it down and explain it in a way that I think anybody could understand it.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

So thank you for that let me I'll tell you that that's what we had to learn Stacy um as you can imagine Stanford University starting something nobody knew what we were talking about and we we'd go out in public and they go what? So we had to learn through bitter experience start talking like normal human beings and recognize that you're talking to normal human beings that's been the value of our work is titrating it so that it can be understood.

Voiceover 43:16

So well this has been an amazing uh conversation with you and again I want to um really highly recommend people look for your books um particular Forgive for good proven prescription for health and happiness it's a book out there obviously um you can find it on the all the normal channels and it's a a great guide to getting forgiveness in your life though thank you for doing this amazing work out in the world it's uh obviously you're touching people and I'm sure you touched somebody somebody today with uh with what you shared well thank you remember to like and subscribe YouTube responder resilience Facebook responder tvedin apple podcast spotify and go to our website responder tv.com for past episodes and guest information until the next time stay safe be kind to yourself take care of the fight