Addressing Retirement, Moral Injury and Suicide | S5 E5

SPEAKER_13 0:00

The reason why we collect the data is because we want to understand the reasons why our brothers and sisters are taking their lives. When you see our data, remember these are not numbers. These are the faces and names of our brothers and sisters and the families they left behind. They'll say, well, we knew about military suicides. We know about police. We didn't know firefighters take their lives. We need more counselors because as our counselors are starting to see more and more first responders, they're starting to get overwhelmed. And one of the key aspects of moral injury is betrayal. It's important to take care of our brothers and sisters. And I tell them, please push pride to the side, reach out, and ask for help.

Voiceover 0:54

He's the founder and CEO of Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. And we're going to be talking about moral injury, firefighter behavioral health, cultural brainwashing, internal size of cognitive disconnect, suicide data, and more. Please like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder Wellness Inc., and Responder TV. LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at FirstResponderCenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. We'll be right back to speak with Jeff after this.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job.

SPEAKER_06 1:39

In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in high risk, but responders are quietly suffering.

Bonnie Rumilly 1:51

In this family, many struggle with job-related stress.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

In this family, we have to help.

Voiceover 2:39

Jeff travels United States and Canada holding workshops to educate firefighters, dispatchers, and EMS about behavioral health awareness, moral injury, and suicide prevention. In 2010, FBHA began tracking and validating data on all firefighter EMS and dispatcher suicides across the United States. And in addition, FBHA offers 10 workshops for first responders, counselors, chaplains, family members, and those preparing for retirement. Jeff holds a master's degree in counseling, and he's a retired fire captain at the Palatine Rural Fire Protection District in Inverness, Illinois. Jeff, warm welcome to Responder Resilience.

SPEAKER_13 3:19

Good morning and happy New Year's to everyone.

unknown 3:21

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 3:22

Happy New Year to you. Happy New Year. So, Jeff, I'd like to start off by asking you can you share your journey with us and also what inspired you to start the Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance?

SPEAKER_13 3:37

Yeah, absolutely. And uh it's one that I never saw coming when I started my fire career in 1990 as a volunteer firefighter. So, and uh so I was for five years a volunteer, and then I went career in 95 and moved up pretty quickly up the ranks, uh lieutenant to battalion chief. And I was probably at BC the longest 12 years when in 2005 Hurricane Katrina hit. And that outside of Chicago, Division I sent down numerous firefighters, including a couple from our department, that went down to help out our brothers and sisters. And when they showed me, when they came back, they showed me videos of the devastation and they were picking up bodies in the streets and they were struggling. So uh we sent them to our employee system program counselors, good people, but at that time, remember, this is you know 2005, we we didn't talk about behavior health back then in our world, and so they continue to struggle. So that's when I decided, you know, what can I do to help out our brothers and sisters? So I went and got my master's degree and became a licensed counselor. And actually in 2009, my bride and I, Karen, uh, we founded counseling services for firefighters, and we started training counselors and chaplains. You want to work with us? You need to understand this. We're a little different. Not that it's wrong from my point of view, but we're a tad bit different. When in early 2010, I started receiving emails and phone calls from all over the world saying, Do you do anything about firefighter suicides? I had never heard of such a thing. And I started doing a lot of research and found out this could be an issue within our culture. So that's uh when in 2010 my wife and I we founded FBHA. And uh, you know, we started talking about post-traumatic stress and depression and the suicide uh prevention awareness, and then we started tracking the data back then. So it's uh and believe me, we we got beat up back then. We I still have emails from saying hey PTS that's a military and suicides are making up the numbers because like I said, this was all new to everyone. Uh but uh it's it's been one heck of a journey, there's no doubt about it. I love seeing the growth that's happened, the the amount of organizations that are out there now talking about behavioral health and suicide awareness and prevention. There's there's just so much going on, and yet we still have so much to do. Uh, two of the greatest, I think, accomplishments have been the development of the peer support teams, as well as our counselors, who are now understanding our world, only I think because we're letting them in and we're training them to understand why we act the way that we do. So that's uh that's a quick summary of all the things that we have done.

Bonnie Rumilly 6:26

Well, you're doing great work, Jeff. There's a lot of parallels um that David, Stacy, and I could draw to our trauma team here in Fairfield County, Connecticut. Um, we're doing a lot of the same things, and one of the things that we do too is watch the statistics. And we and you were particularly alarmed with the suicide rate surpassing line of duty death rates. So can you elaborate a little bit um in your own words, why it's so important to keep this data, why it's important for people, whether it's in the counseling profession or in the first responder world, to see this data?

SPEAKER_13 7:00

Well, I think it's important to understand that when FBHA we were founded, we had some goals, objectives, uh, educational workshops. Uh we also wanted to make sure we take care of the families of the survivor, the survivors of those first responder suicides. So when we started collecting that data and we started interpreting what are the different avenues that we're seeing within our data. So the reason why we collect the data is because we want to understand the reasons why our brothers and sisters are taking their lives, which led us to the white paper that we did on moral injury. But also, we want to remember the family survivors and uh a bond that they create amongst each other, which is very important. And I tell people as well that when you see our data, remember these are not numbers, these are the faces and names of our brothers and sisters and the families they left behind.

Voiceover 7:57

You've been uh generous enough to collaborate uh with me and us on uh an article about retiree suicide. And part of what um what I learned from you is that the numbers on your website are um it's not probably not the total numbers, right? Um can you talk a little bit about the numbers you are getting and then the numbers that perhaps are not showing up and and why that is?

SPEAKER_13 8:20

So currently, uh as of this date on January 15th, we I have validated 2,160 losses of our brothers and sisters. We estimate about a 60 percent. Now we track uh career or volunteer fire, wild land military. I've spoken at a lot of military bases as well as the Pentagon. We track EMS as well as dispatchers, and so this data i it's important, and yet we estimate about a 60% reporting, because as everyone knows here on the show, and a lot of people in our world, that about 70 to 72 percent of all firefighters are volunteers, so we miss a lot of that aspect on those numbers, as well as EMS. And uh so that that is where we estimate about a 60 percent. And I I take that from say if I'm speaking in front of 500 people and I ask how many have heard of FBHA, I get very few hands raised. And we are we're we're very I don't know what the word is, but we're very kind of close knit on this aspect of talking about suicide. We don't call departments and say, hey, is your department had a suicide? Uh these are shops that we have. We don't we don't do that. I I'm a personal believer that these are family issues. And if the family does not want to discuss it, then that's that's their prerogative. But what makes it unreal is out of the 2160 that I have validated, I have personally spoken to about 2,100 fire chiefs, and they trust me in the confidentiality because we don't use names or organizations. And to have that trust is incredible, and to keep our name clean is um it's it's difficult, there's no doubt about it, because when I see a chief at a conference or something, I I can't just say, Hey, uh chief, how you doing? The last time we talked was, you know, I can't do that. I have to, it's like as like Stacy knows, if you see a client somewhere in the in the grocery store uh and Bonnie, right? You see you see someone in a grocery store, you can't just say, Hey, Joe, how you doing? You know, the person with them says, Well, how do you know Jeff? So confidentiality is imperative for us.

SPEAKER_08 10:41

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SPEAKER_06 11:48

So, Jeff, um, how do relationship issues contribute to mental health challenges and suicide among firefighters?

SPEAKER_13 11:57

Well, that it's a great question because when I ask people in our workshops, what do you think is the number one known reason why our brothers and sisters are taking their lives? And people believe it's it's post-traumatic stress. And and I know it plays a real part, but the number one known reason, unknown is number one, but the number one known reason is due to relationships, whether personal or professional, by far, and then followed by depression. And so that's what actually led us to look into moral injury. And moral injury I feel plays a larger role than post-traumatic stress in in our world, and in a lot of people's worlds, a lot of people's careers and things. So uh, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about moral injury coming up, but uh relationships, very important. And that's we knew that early on. That's why we came up with our saving those who save others, the family edition workshop, for families and and the children to understand why we act the way that we do and how it affects you at home.

SPEAKER_06 13:02

Well, just to add to that, and it backs up what you're saying, uh, we interviewed Dr. Olivia Johnston, and for um, you know, for police suicides, interpersonal relationship issues is also the number one cause.

SPEAKER_13 13:18

No, I and I I believe that, and and I know Olivia very well. She's a very dear friend, and she does tremendous work for the our brothers and sisters in the blue.

Bonnie Rumilly 13:29

You know, we had the fortunate opportunity, David mentioned it before, but you helped us a little bit with an article that David and I wrote on retirees and retirement and this mental health issue that we're seeing. It's really an epidemic in the retiree population if we look at it closely. Um in your experience, what are the most significant mental health challenges in this retiree population that we've started to really hone in on?

SPEAKER_13 13:56

And it's a great question. You know, we we just can't throw a party after 30 years and give them an axe on a board to say thanks for your time and see that this has been an issue. So when we started looking at our data, and as difficult it is to get active, it's more difficult to get retirees. But um, out of the approximate 400 that we have validated, almost 10% of them took their lives within the first week of retirement. So I went out and I interviewed 127 recently retired fire and DMS and found a uh the top three issues that they were dealing with, and that was loss of identity, loss of belonging, and lack of purpose. And when you put those together, it speaks to moral injury. And I'll get to moral injury right now. I'm talking about it, I might as well explain it real quick. So where PTSD is trauma-based, fear-based, moral injury affects our emotions. And so the belief is with moral injury is that as human beings, we're born inherent to help others. And then you get into this first responder world and you're trained to save lives. But if you look at it, and Bonnie, you can attest to this, over I was a paramedic for many years over my career. What was actually our save rate? And so I asked people the last year while I was doing workshops, and we came to the conclusion the save rate was only about five to eight percent. And so that helplessness, the ability not to save people, and it leads to all those emotions that you you go through. And one of the key aspects of moral injury is betrayal. Betrayal by management, they're they're just not giving us enough people, we're working too much overtime, the pay is not good, uh, the benefits are not good, the equipment, or betrayal by others. Why is someone picking on me, harassing me, abusing me, one of my brothers and sisters, or betrayal by ourselves? Why did I go out and have an affair and now wreck my marriage and my children don't want to be with me? So all these things come into play. And now you can have PTSD and moral injury at the same time, but one of the key aspects is that it's two different types of therapy. Right. And the military's been studying this for a very long time. And when I talked to them about their study, they said that they actually had more contributions or attributions of suicide to moral injury than PTSD. And so I I see this within our own brothers and sisters because I looked at my data and I found that at least 40 of our brothers and sisters who went to inpatient for addictions or PTSD or depression, when they came out, they still ended up taking their lives. And it makes me just think well, were those issues addressed, but not the moral injury? And one of the key aspects of moral injury, and it'll be in our white paper too, that we're currently in the middle of, is the ability to forgive. Forgive others, forgive ourselves. And that's easier said than done. And so that's that's why we're trying to bring this white paper to to bring awareness to clinicians and chaplains, peer support teams, to watch out for that. If people are starting to feel guilty, those emotions that people struggle with. So that's uh that's a little bit about moral injury. And we see that with our retirees now. Yeah, well, so it's uh it's a complex situation, but we need to address it.

Voiceover 17:30

Uh I just uh impressed with the way you describe moral injury and the and the scope of it, um, both in the first responder community and the military community. So thanks, Jeff, for uh for that perspective. Um, I want to kind of touch back on the retiree population and what are your thoughts in terms of resources or tools or things you might recommend to firefighters and EMT to help them cope with that loss of identity, the loss of the tribe once they leave the profession?

SPEAKER_13 17:59

Well, one of the things, uh many things that I recommend is first, if they're about a year out from retirement, help prepare. That department organization should help prepare them for that, that transition. Maybe go back to school. If if you have a hobby that you want to take into a business, take some classes and work that. You know, you know, the how do I work the media? Do I become a LLC or do I become a nonprofit? Understanding the tax laws and media and social outlets to help you build that business. Another thing that we recommend is if you're married or have a partner or spouse, go to marriage counseling six months at least prior to you leaving, because that day you walk in and say, Hey, I'm home, and there's oh no, all the time. That's a problem. And believe me, I I remember my days. My wife would say, uh, yeah, uh, did you find a part-time job yet? Or when I was working, is there any overtime for you to take? You know, you you have to go to that counselor to understand each other's needs because when I was gone on shift work, my wife had a life. And it's it's not right for me to say, okay, I'm retired, let's do this, because this is what she's used to. So you go to counseling to figure out what do you need from me and what I need from you and work those things out because communications, we see divorces in retirement. And that comes to that, what I call that internal size up. Uh, to me, internal size up is a phrase that I coined back in 2012. Means that I need to ask myself or every first responder two questions. Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way? And the best thing that you can do is listen to others. They see us better than we will ever see ourselves. I I've been married now 44 years. I've been blessed. But I've also had the ability to learn that she knows when, hey Jeff, you you seem a little down, you're a little angry, or whatever the issue is. And I've learned to listen to her. And and that's important. And you can do that now. As couples, uh, even retirees, at the end of the night, do an internal size-up checkup. Hey, what emotions did I show today? How did I display it for you know that affected you? And how can we work through those things? So, communications, as you know, is the failure of many issues in life. And so we need to start working on that aspect for our, especially our retirees, the ability to communicate what they're feeling, what they're missing. So that's just one of the many things that we talk about.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

When you retire, you're just another employee that's gone. In 10 years, you'll be, oh yeah, that's uh good old what's his name.

SPEAKER_07 20:43

And sometimes I think for a lot of us, it's scary to retire when you've been raised by an organization for almost three decades.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

There's a running joke that says that as you retire, you're forgotten about before you even leave the parking lot.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

It wasn't that I was losing the passion for the job. I decided uh I want to go ahead and transition and start traveling and talking to groups of people.

SPEAKER_12 21:06

I lost who I was. I didn't have any plans for the future.

SPEAKER_11 21:11

So we're always saving for a waiting day. And what ends up happening is you die, and you never receive the benefit of you working so hard for so long.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

You find yourself without identity.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

I was past police cars, and it was like somebody punched me in the sky. Like I got sick because I missed it so bad.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

When you say I'm retired firefighters, people they noticed. And they're like, wow, man, that's incredible. And it provides an avenue for you to be impactful.

SPEAKER_06 22:05

Jeff, thanks for uh explaining what internal size up is. There's another um term that you've mentioned uh called cultural brainwashing. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_13 22:16

So cultural brainwashing was another uh phrase I coined back in 2011. It was uh right before my my first four workshops were for the Philadelphia Fire Department. And uh I'll never recall walking into that first class of about 100 Philly firefighters say we'll be talking about PTS and suicide awareness. I'd never seen so many people shift chairs, shift their butts in the chairs as that. But it was a phrase I introduced in that workshop, cultural brainwashing mean when we put on this uniform, how are we supposed to act? Well, professional, right? Which means brave, strong, courageous, give help, don't ask for help. I handle all issues on my own. And when you're struggling, whether personal or professional, and you're expected to handle those things on your own, it's difficult. And what that cultural brainwashing also means is for society, we have workshops for clinicians and for family members. And I always ask at the beginning of those classes, when you hear the term firefighter, what words come to your mind? And I get the same thing strong, brave, self-sacrificing. In 15 years, now we're going into our 16th year. I've yet to hear anyone say, Well, geez, uh, they have anger issues, they drink like fish, they can't communicate, right? Because society is culturally brainwashed. And people, when they talk to me, they'll say, Well, we knew about military suicides, we know about police, we didn't know firefighters take their lives. And it's like, why would you not? I mean, look at the things that we're dealing with. And you look at LA right now, it's a perfect example. To me, yeah, that's a perfect uh storm for moral injury issues because they're feeling helpless, they can't respond, they couldn't respond to houses that were on fire, they had no rigs or had no way to get there, people were trapped, they had no water in the hose lines. So all those are that they feel betrayed by whoever it was, they feel guilty that they couldn't do their assignments. So I look at those things because I unfortunately have suicides from 9-11, from Hurricane Katrina, from mass shootings. And so these types of things really uh bother me. And I'm trying to institute, I developed a policy for mass casualty incident peer support response teams. They go to the scenes and rehab and you observe people so that you can take their names and then talk to them, follow up a week later instead of three or four months later. And you know, I'm here in Las Vegas. I work for Las Vegas Fire and Rescue as the behavior health administrator, and I I deal with our dispatchers and some firefighters still from the mass shooting in Las Vegas in 2017, October 1. So these are the things. Let's let's address these right away instead of three, four months, because I don't know who went and who was there and what they did. So that's these are the things that we need to work on within the fire EMS dispatch world.

Bonnie Rumilly 25:20

I couldn't agree with you more. And Stacey and I still get clients from 9-11 who've never seen a therapist in all these years, or Sandy Hook due to our proc proximity. And it's heartbreaking, you know, when you see that someone has lived with these symptoms for that long and the impact on their spouse, their children, their ex-spouse. Um, you know, you've identified a lot of these things already. Um, can you talk a little bit more? You've mentioned some of the workshops, but are there any other ones that you wanted to mention to us? Because it is fascinating to see all the topics you're covering.

SPEAKER_13 25:55

Like I said, when we started, I just had this avenue of PTSD and also the suicides of information with the families, with the counselors and chaplains, with peer support teams, you know, how to train peer support teams. We do a lot of role play based on the data that I've collected. But and so our latest one is PTSD versus moral injury, and to understand those things. So most of them are are two-hour long. We do have four-hour ones, and that's where we do the role play. It's important because role play puts things in your minds. We we have a good time with it because people make mistakes, and but it's almost like I don't know if you remember years ago, they used to have banger ladders. They were real tall ladders, you had six poles, stay poles, and you try to bounce them to set them up. You you you look like a bunch of clowns at a circus setting them up. But but and they don't use them anymore, but you remember, and and that's what roleplay does. Role play teaches you what to look out for, what type of keywords when someone says to you, Man, I had a rough night last night. Well, what's a rough night? For me, it's my Patriots getting kicked all over the football stadium. You know, but for them, it's you know, they they drank you know 12k uh cans of beer and added some vodka and things like that. So ability to listen and then say, hey, what does a rough light look like? And get that information. And so those are the things that we teach in our workshops, uh, especially for the families, uh what to look out for within your own self and your children, and understand why we act the way that we do. What makes us different amongst all the other organizations is that not only the data, I mean, no one no one touches us with the data, but 90% of all our workshops come from our brothers and sisters. I've traveled well over a million miles across the US and Canada speaking, talked to thousands upon thousands, done numerous surveys, both face-to-face or or through the internet, and the things I've learned from them is incredible. And one that just finally I learned about, and I think it's been out there, is recent suicides that we had of some firefighters. It was due to religion. And I and that never crossed my mind because they had done something wrong and two different faiths, and they excommunicated them out of their faith. And that what they left in their suicide notes was the reason why they took their lives. They felt that they betrayed their faith and their people. And so these are the things that I'm learning time and time again. And it's because they're they're talking to me, they're they're talking to their clinicians, and and that's that's what's so important.

Voiceover 28:47

Well, Jeff, I wanted to jump back to something you brought up earlier, um, and that's forgiveness. Um, I imagine a lot of people struggle with that in various ways. What have you found to be effective to get to a place of forgiveness and to kind of let go of some of the some of the injuries and some of the um some of the perceived uh wrongs that people carry with them for years and years?

SPEAKER_13 29:10

What the number one issue that we found when we start talking about people and that forgiveness was that they needed to reacclimate themselves to their faith. And and that was the whether it's spiritual, whether it means I go to a church, a synagogue, or I sit on top of a mountain, watch a sunset. They they try to find that inner spirit, that inner peace. And that's what people have lost and they forget about within our world. They're just so constantly either hyperactive because they're always looking for other issues, or they're working overtime, they're thinking about all these calls that they have, they're stressed about their family, financial, the economy, that they've forgotten about who they were, their faith, and what they believe in, and their spiritual faith. And so we we try to recognize that within people as well. So that that is the number one issue that we are working with.

SPEAKER_05 30:08

As firefighters and first responders, we're brilliant at the basics. We master the art of stretching the line and we excel at being there for those who need us most. Yet, even the best of us can be caught off guard. We sometimes face unexpected challenges like injury, cancer, or post-traumatic stress symptoms. But you're not alone. The First Responder Center for Experts is here to equip you with the tools and resources you need to stay informed and prepared. We have to focus on staying strong, safe, fit, and resilient. Optimize your performance, cutting out health, wellness, and science information. From sickness to nutrition, medical evaluation to physical health, data awareness to cardiac health. We've got you covered. Remember, we're stronger together. Discover more at firstrespondercenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube. The First Responder Center for Excellence. Equip yourself with excellence for every call.

SPEAKER_06 31:12

So, Jeff, do you think that the disconnect from spirituality is because of not having enough time and being consumed with maybe starting a family and then moving up in rank and having more responsibility? Or do you think it's the nature of the work itself as a firefighter, or both?

SPEAKER_13 31:32

You know, I I think it's absolutely a combination of both because as they're progressing, they're working a lot more overtime and they're they're trying to move up the ladder, but it's also trying to take care of their family, trying to get them to soccer and the financial needs as well, so that there's something that's just lost. And then the amount of calls, the different types of calls that they have. It starts eating away at that moral injury and that that guilt, that they're not helping people. More and more people are dying in front of them. And those struggles, and we we tend to forget about our own selves. And that's important that we remember who we are and why we're in this business is to help others, but we also have to make sure that we take care of ourselves.

Bonnie Rumilly 32:18

So one of the things that I'm seeing a lot in my office is where the trauma comes in are betrayals or attachment traumas in early life. And in a lot of the first responders I work with, I see they have such a hard time with forgiveness because they haven't done some of that work from their early life and from childhood when they were wronged or abandoned. Um, and so here we go when it shows up in later life in a career or with some of your brothers and sisters in EMS who you bond very deeply with, um, all of a sudden it's really hard for them to try to figure out how do I forgive? Because there's this whole other body of work and wrongs, shall we say, that they haven't looked at yet. And I think a lot of the work that I end up doing is helping them do the early forgiveness if possible, which then leads them to be able to do some more of this current forgiveness. I was wondering what you thought about that.

SPEAKER_13 33:21

Well, speaking about myself, well, I had a wonderful childhood. So uh how I got in the fire service is is a little different. But I have heard that many have struggled with early childhood trauma, and they kind of bury that, and then they get into this field saying, Well, I'm going to make a difference, I'm going to make a change and help people. But through time, or maybe even if you had a good childhood, but you had a real tough call, your first year or a couple of years, you had some real tough calls. You start now absorbing that. And like I said, when it comes to that moral injury, and we're trying to save people, if that's what your goal was, because you had a very difficult childhood, I'm going to make a difference. Well, when people start dying more and more, that I'm going to make a difference starts falling to the side, and they start losing themselves within themselves. And that's that's difficult. And you you see people, you know, one of one of the things that we talk about is our negative attitude. First responders, uh, when asked, yeah, they they have a negative attitude, and how can we not from the things that we see and the things that we do? Yeah. And it's so it's like I said, it's very difficult. I think that's why when we deliver a baby or we bring someone back from a full arrest, we we celebrate it because we're excited. We we've we saved one. Which which is tremendous, but those percentages are so very low.

Voiceover 34:50

And so I wanted to jump to another term that uh love for you to elaborate on and describe for us. Um, and that's cognitive disconnect. What is that and how does that relate to first responders' experiences?

SPEAKER_13 35:04

So cognitive disconnect is uh FBHA's belief is that uh that firefighter, first responder, bases a decision on the emotions they're going through at that moment, and reality goes right out the window. So let's let's take an example. A firefighter is having a rough relationship with their partner spouse, and they're on the phone, and the spouse finally says, That's it, I'm done, I'm out. Well, that emotion of anger or guilt or whatever they're feeling is that I have to alleviate myself of this pain. I have to get rid of this darkness, my family will be better off. And if people aren't standing there, that emotion takes over to take their life. And you see it, I've heard it so many times. You know, that that firefighter was the last person I thought that would take their life. They were happy, go lucky, but the demons that they were dealing with, and then they get into that issue, whether it's grief or whether it's anger, jealousy, guilt, depression, when they're in that moment and that darkness. And I liken it to if you've ever done the the baseball bat spin challenge where you put your head on the bat and you run around like 30 times, and then you stand up, you are so discombobulated, you have no idea where you're going. Well, that's what's going on in their mind. It's just that I have to alleviate this pain, my family would be better off, and they end up taking their lives. And that's why we try to promote that. Do that internal size up every day. Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way? So that you make that call to your peer support team, your chaplain, your counselor, whoever is your person that you want the go-to to be. Uh it's very, very difficult. You know, there was a statement that came out in one of the articles a few months ago that said suicide is always preventable. I am not a firm believer of that because of this cognitive disconnect. If you're not standing there by their side 24-7, how do you prevent those difficult decisions? And like I said, we do weekend retreats for family survivors. I we know hundreds of family members. I have yet to hear any of them say, man, I'm glad that that person's gone. You know, that but that's the belief that they have during that cognitive disconnect moment.

SPEAKER_06 37:36

So, Jeff, are there specific training programs or initiatives that you believe can help uh first responders address and overcome these mental health challenges?

SPEAKER_13 37:47

Well, I'm a I'm a firm believer in education. If you stop learning, you stop growing. That's just my belief in that. So I'm also a firm believer that organizations should have complete behavioral health programs. And for me, that means not just having an employee system program and a peer support team. It means you start your atmosphere in the fire service in the academies. You train your family members, your counselors and your chaplains, you create behavioral health policies and guidelines to show exactly what's going to happen if you come and ask for help. These are the things that the officers will be looking for. And then, you know, the last one, of course, it's a 12-point program for us. But uh the last one is retirement. What are we doing to help out retirees? And so having these uh annual checkups, the an atmosphere of acceptance of behavioral health is absolutely important for organizations, fire EMS, uh any organization actually in the United States. If you have a business, there should be a behavioral health and not just, well, we finally we had a line of duty death or a suicide. Maybe we should look into behavioral health. By that time, it's it's way too late because you have members that have been struggling for years. So that educational process starts within that organization, bringing that atmosphere from the chief down, maybe even the city hall or the board of trustees down to say we are doing everything possible to help out our people and have resources. Resources incredible. We have a QR code here in Vegas that we put together. Our firefighters can go on their phone, look at their QR code, and it gives them all their counselors that I have vetted. It gives them inpatient, outpatient facilities, it gives them the peer support team, their numbers, the um the chaplains. It has uh a library. I have a library of books here on behavior health. Or they can just call and I will find them specific counselors that they're looking for. So having a QR code is easy accessible because they don't have to maybe go to someone if they're in bed. They can just go on their phone and look. So these are the things that we should be doing within the fire service.

Voiceover 40:06

Jeff, I wanted to just piggyback on what you were saying there. Um, because you also have a directory of behavioral health professionals online. Can you just speak to that and let people know how to find it?

SPEAKER_13 40:17

So back in 2013, the only organization that really wanted to work with us was the National Volunteer Fire Council. So we built a bond, a partnership. And uh one of their lead instructors, well, about six years ago, they knew that I get a lot of calls every week from our brothers and sisters looking for help counselors. So we decided to create this directory of behavioral health. And so what happens is the uh applications are are sent out to counselors, they send them back in, and FBHA vets them. And then we put them on the list. And many have not made it. Um, many do not return the calls. And so these are the things that we do through the vetting process, and it gets somewhere between 2,500 to 3,000 hits a month. So it's working out really well. Uh, we need more counselors because as our counselors are starting to see more and more first responders, they're starting to get overwhelmed, as I'm sure Stacey and Bonnie can attest to. So we need to keep on growing that. But we have counselors in every state and a couple in Canada as well. Uh so it's uh like I said, provide the resources, both within your organization, outside in your communities, even those that don't have take your insurance, because many don't want people to know that they're going to counselors, so they'll pay cash. So have all those types of response uh resources available for your people.

Voiceover 41:42

What's the uh best way for people to find that directory?

SPEAKER_13 41:46

They can just uh go to nationalvolunteer or nbfc.org and google under programs, or they can go to our website under hey, you got me on that one on the tabs, but I think it's uh the help tab, and you can see uh there's a link to that uh directory.

Voiceover 42:03

Great.

SPEAKER_13 42:03

Uh they can call they can call me as well.

Voiceover 42:06

So excellent. As we wrap up, any uh final thoughts, Stacey Bondi?

Bonnie Rumilly 42:11

Well, I I wanted to ask Jeff one more question before we sign off here. He was mentioning the fire department culture and you know needs to come from top down. In your words, um, these ingrained beliefs and norms and stigma, some of us may also refer to it as within the fire service. How do you think that's really contributing to all of these issues that we've talked about today?

SPEAKER_13 42:36

Well, it's difficult, and we see a lot of these challenges from uh, and I don't want to really geographically uh box people in, but uh especially in the in the east, east coast. You know, I have friends on major cities out there, and when you look at them, they they have generations. They're their great-great-grandfather, their great grandfather, they have traditions steeper than we have states out here in the West. And so it's very difficult to break that. But unfortunately they're starting to see the light, and why is because they're losing their brothers and sisters. And so these are the things that we see as new chiefs are being new officers are being developed. They're seeing more and more behavioral health as they're coming up through the ranks, and so therefore, it becomes a lot easier for them to start instituting behavioral health programs within their organizations.

SPEAKER_06 43:33

I think I've noticed I've noticed that too, that the the Northeast seems to be kind of stuck in its old patterns, and it seems like a lot of new ideas and innovations seem to come from the West for whatever reason, you know. Maybe it's in the blood of the people that went west. Um you know, just just thinking differently and and um being uh proactive, I guess. Um so I I hope that it just now comes east, you know, all of your good ideas.

SPEAKER_13 44:05

And it will. I mean, I I I started I was born and raised in New York, Rochester, New York, and then I did all my fire time. I lived 35, 36 years in Illinois. Illinois are very proactive in regard to behavior health. And we're starting, like I said, we're starting to see more and more of those challenges. But understand that there's a lot of states that are mainly volunteer firefighters, and they don't have those opportunities. So when we traveled in 2017 with our camper and truck, my wife and I, we were gone for over a year just visiting uh small towns, mid-sized towns, large. You you haven't lived until you have a 29-foot trailer with a long bed truck driving through the streets of Hoboken, New Jersey. That is that's the testimony to your nerves. But we we see we see the progress happening. Understand the fire service has been around since Ben Franklin. We've only actually been talking about behavior health since 2010. So we've come a long ways, but we still have a long ways to go.

Voiceover 45:08

Jeff, um, as we wrap up, any other events coming up you want to share, and how can people find you out there, social media, websites, stuff like that?

SPEAKER_13 45:17

Yeah, I mean our webpage is uh, of course, uh www.ffbha.org. We have a lot of different uh things that people can download from there, uh some documents, some uh uh questionnaires that they can use. Uh of course we're on Facebook, just Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. All you have to do is Google us. Uh we're you'll be you'll be able to find us. And uh we're our training sessions are starting to increase. I just asked the other night to speak at uh a Canadian Fire Chiefs conference up in Saskatchewan. So it's uh I'm just starting to build. I'll be at the Fire Chiefs at Alabama here in February. I'll be in New Mexico coming up here in uh early February. So we're so we're getting around. Uh there's no doubt about it. But COVID uh really set us back as many organizations. So but uh you know we don't we don't get a lot of funding because it is suicide behavior health, and we know how society is with that. Uh and but uh by the grace of the good Lord, we're we're getting it done. And uh it's important to take care of our brothers and sisters, and and I tell them, please push pride to the side, reach out and ask for help.

Voiceover 46:32

Stacy Bonnie, final thoughts.

Bonnie Rumilly 46:35

I just want to thank you, Jeff, for all the work that you've done and that you'll continue to do. Uh it's been a pleasure talking to you, and it's great to know we can have you in our back pocket as well. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_13 46:47

Thank you, Bonnie. I appreciate all your work too. And anytime you need any of our data, just uh let me know.

SPEAKER_06 46:53

Thank you. Jeff, do you come to the Northeast and give workshops?

SPEAKER_13 46:59

I have uh many times. Uh in fact, I was just talking with someone. Uh I might be coming back up to Massachusetts in April. But I I've been I've been to every state except Hawaii. So I yes, I I do uh go to the East Coast when when asked. So I I I love the East Coast. Uh I'm an all-Boston fan, Red Sox and Patriots and Celtics and Bruins. Uh so I I love coming up to Boston. I usually get up there once a year. So uh enjoy that area. I enjoy Connecticut, uh, Rhode Island, Vermont. So there's a there's a lot of beauty up there in nature. That that helps that helps me uh relax. And plus uh I just uh published my first children's book. So uh life life life is good right now.

Voiceover 47:42

I appreciate everything you're doing and and everything you've shared with us today. So um I can only say please keep up the good work and keep uh changing lives and having an impact.

SPEAKER_13 47:52

Well, David, I appreciate that. But it doesn't get done, the word doesn't get done unless we have organizations like yours doing these podcasts to get out there so people can hear what is actually going on. So kudos to you three as well. I appreciate your dedication and passion in helping out my brothers and sisters.

Voiceover 48:10

Anytime. Until the next time, remember to like and subscribe, YouTube respond resilience, Facebook, responder wellness, and responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to respondertv.com for past episodes of guest information. Until the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care of the