Modern Tools for Mental Mastery with Dr. Nolan Beise | S5 E27

SPEAKER_05 0:00

How can we make first responders more sustainable so that people aren't getting burnt out, people aren't getting PTSD, people aren't, you know, running out of gas and going over the waterfall, as they say? Is people show up and I ask them, How are you doing? And I get the same answer every single time. Oh, I'm a little bit tired, but I'm fine. And then I measure their brain and their story changes every time. So we can start to understand, oh, the you're fine today is less fine than yesterday or last year. Let's start to get you back up to healthy before you ever get to the point of losing resilience where you might be at risk of getting a diagnostic condition or being more prone to it. Just assuming that you're gonna be fine and assuming that you're gonna wake up and your brain is just gonna work perfectly every day is a flawed assumption, right? You're taking a risk by living that life.

Voiceover 0:45

Welcome to Responder Resilience, along with my co-host Bonnie Rumoli, LCSW EMT. I'm David Dashinger. Today we're speaking with Dr. Nolan Vicey, CEO of Circle Brain Health. So imagine this you put on a slick headset, dive into a quick game, and just minutes later you're looking at a personalized readout of your mental speed, power, and focus levels. So what if you could optimize your mind just as you do your body? Well, today's episode we're going to explore groundbreaking tools that assess and enhance cognitive performance in ways you've probably never imagined. So let's unlock those secrets and look at up-leveling your brain game. This episode is made possible by Circle Brain. If you're a first responder, it's time to take brain health seriously. Go to circlebrain.com to learn more because the toughest battles deserve the sharpest minds. There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's called Crackle. Download the app now for free as a legacy member and get early access to exclusive content, tools, and updates as they drop. Get the free app at crackle.responderTV.com. Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com. Past episodes, guest information. We'll be right back to speak with Dr. Beisey after this. In this family, more of us die by our own hands and by the hazards of the job. In this family, up to a quarter of 911 telecommunicators have symptoms of post-traumatic stress. In this family, our mental health and wellness are in high risk, while responders are quietly suffering. In this family, many suffer with job-related stress, burnout, injury, great disruption, substance abuse, and relationship problems. In this family, we have helped to helpers. With vital information and resources, resilience strategies, and success stories of overcoming the obstacles. Welcome to Responder Resilience. We co-host retired Lieutenant David Datchinger, Dr. Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Rimley, LCSW EMTV. I'd like to welcome today's guest, Dr. Nolan Visee. He's a neuroscientist and entrepreneur and the founder of Circle Brain Health Metrics Inc., which pioneers real-world EEG tools to support cognitive performance and mental wellness. He holds a PhD in biochemistry from the University of Toronto and has led over $80 million in research initiatives at the intersection of science and innovation. His first startup, SUVA, developed cognitive fatigue monitoring software used in a NASA Mars training mission. Now it's Circle, Dr. Bisee focuses on helping first responders build mental resilience by detecting cognitive decline before it impacts daily life. Nolan, welcome to Respond Resilience. Wonderful to be here. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

It's great to have you, Dr. Bise. And just being a therapist, I always want to know the why. So if we could jump in there, can you share your personal experience and what led you to be so interested in neuroscience and the work that you're doing?

SPEAKER_05 3:57

It's a great question. So I've always been slightly wired different from everybody else. Um I've always done things just my own way. Um I've always required more sleep than everybody else. Like back in my university days, I used to lay down on concrete floors and fall asleep in the middle of study sessions that I was running. And so I just for some reason was always different. And it's it's taken a lifelong pursuit really to figure myself out. And that sort of led to being very interested in the brain and how the brain works and how we perceive things. And then in my family, there is a history of dementia. And so I've seen the effects of that uh and lived through that with my grandparents and parents, and um it's it's been very noticeable, and um it's just made it more impactful for me to think, you know, is there a better way? Is there you know other options to think about how we can understand our brain? And I ended up doing a PhD dissecting brains and studying them at the cellular level. And that just made me even more fascinated about it. And I I kind of went through a bunch of different research phases there where I started off on really thinking about what are the sort of cellular mechanisms of thought and looked into that and then realized that well, you can actually measure thought with the electrical signals that are produced by your brain using EEG and technologies that we use. And so that really has opened this whole world up to me to be looking at well, while we're alive and still healthy, is there a way to understand what's going on before we get to a point where we're not healthy? And this has been a you know a really fun and engaging journey, and every day I learned something new.

Voiceover 5:36

Well, that's huge. And uh I love the proactive aspect of that. So um I'm I'd love to circle back to that in a little bit. Before we do, um, tell us a little bit about what motivated you to establish circle brain health metrics. Kind of how did that background you had in uh dissecting brains and neuroscience shape your company's vision?

SPEAKER_05 5:56

So the very first job I had out of my PhD, I was building research partnerships between academic uh researchers and industry. And the whole point of it was to help innovations happen across the world and to help companies figure out how to leverage and work with academics because they speak different languages, right? And industry thinks about you know, what are the deliverables I can get from something, and then academics think what are sort of the research that I can do. And there and there's there are ways to sort of tie those two worlds together. And so sitting in that interface, I you know had really vastly expanded my network, and I ended up meeting one researcher who was doing mobile EEG research uh with a different headset up here in Canada. And he reached out to me and said, Hey, I have this idea. What do you think about it? And that just started everything. That was the very beginning of Suva. He was one of my co-founders, and ever since then I haven't looked back. Like I just I can't put this down, and this is such a compelling, interesting technology to me. And I think the capacity for help is is you know literally world-changing. And so I'm I'm I've been chasing it ever since because it's fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

So some of our paramedics and EMTs listening may know what an EEG is, but just for everybody, um, talk to us about what an EEG is and why you chose that kind of technology specifically.

SPEAKER_05 7:14

So EEG is when your brain processes information, when you perceive the world, when you think about things internally, what happens is you get these polarized molecules in your brain that move from one place to another. They're ions. And those ions cause this electrical currents to sort of transmit from your brain, it's just called an action potential. And when you think of things and you perceive things, a whole bunch of brain cells fire all like a light bulb moment all at once, and you get this bulk transmission of electricity from one part of your brain to the next. Now that happens very fast. And so when we think about all of our thoughts happening all the time, you're getting all these voltage changes at your scalp. And if you put electrodes on your scalp, you can measure those little changes in voltage, which are all represented by the thoughts that you're having right now. And so that's been around for a hundred years measuring that. And so it is it is a really, really well documented and researched way to understand what's going on with your thoughts. And now that it's mobile, the applications are just blowing up completely.

Voiceover 8:15

Hey firefighters, let's take a moment to talk about something important. There's a new app built by firefighters for firefighters, and it's not just another wellness tracker or generic resource hub, it's called Crackle. You've probably seen the magazine, but this is the next evolution. The app is about one thing helping firefighters not fail, not just on the job, but in life, in your health, your relationships, your mindset, and your longevity. That's why Crackle is designed to meet firefighters exactly where they are, with resources that make sense, are easy to use, and actually respect your time. You can download the app now for free as a legacy member. That means you get early access to exclusive content tools and updates as they drop. Use the QR code on the screen to download the Crackle app, or you can download it from the App Store or Google Play and stay in the fight. Not just at work, but at home and in your own head too. Because your best days shouldn't be behind you, they should be ahead of you. It looks like maybe something from Star Trek, nothing, nothing too intimidating, almost looks like you know, a very cool thing to wear. So talk a little bit about EEG technology that you've developed and are using in Circle and how that's different from the old school that I was talking about.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

So you're exactly right. The old school way is is it's very accurate, uh, but it's very long and hard to get to information that's useful for you. So, you know, typically you'd have to go into an electrically shielded room, you would be sitting beside a bank of computers, they would take this headset with gel on it, and they would strap it to your head and they would put a chin strap on, and they would it would take sometimes about an hour or so to put on, and then it would take multiple days to analyze the data and figure out what does it all mean. Now, because there's enough data out there, what we did is we took that process and we automated all of it. And so we made it so that you can just take a headset. Um that does it's funny you say that it it looks kind of like uh Star Trek because when I first designed it, I thought it kind of looks like the shape of the enterprise. That's it, yeah. So I get that reference. Um, but what we what we did is we figured out can we find a way where we can help people put it on by themselves, make sure that it's connected to your brain correctly. So we actually analyze is it on your head correctly? Is it can it listen to your thoughts? And then can we analyze your brain in almost real time? So the and the analysis takes, you know, probably about 15 seconds because of the incredible incredible power of cloud computing nowadays. And so we've taken what would normally take, you know, multiple days, and you have to go to a research lab, and we've made it completely mobile. And so this can you can be anywhere that you have an internet connection and you can put it on, and four or five minutes later you have an objective assessment that is research-validated about your brain, which is game changing, right? It's it's the first time of all the people that I measured, it's the first time that they've ever seen their brain waves. And it's it's it's very interesting the trends I'm seeing in terms of where people are at versus where people think they are at.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Well, this is so intriguing, and I'm wondering can you take your research, which is incredible, and what you've invented here, really and shaped, and how can we apply this to the well-being of our first responders? How do you see this being used with that population?

SPEAKER_05 11:58

The first responders, as you guys know because of what you do and what you talk about, um figuring out what's going on with your brain is really challenging, right? We don't have a way to accurately self-assess how are we doing. And so, what happens if you think of like a healthy brain and diagnosable condition, you know, where you're burnt out or you have PTSD or you're dealing with something challenging. In between those things, there is a whole range of brain health that is missed. So as somebody goes from healthy on the words down, they're fine, right? They're fine through that entire journey until they're right next to being in a diagnosable condition and they can't function, then they can't function. And so the whole point of this is to turn that fine into actual numbers so you can see how you're changing. And that change can happen over months or years or even decades. So if we can start to understand, oh, the your fine today is less fine than yesterday or last year, let's start to get you back up to healthy before you ever get to the point of losing resilience where you might be at risk of getting a diagnostic condition or being you know more prone to it. So it's it's all about understanding how to proactively manage your brain. Because what I've seen again and again is people show up and I ask them, How are you doing? And I get the same answer every single time. Oh, I'm a little bit tired, but I'm fine. And then I measure their brain and their story changes. Every time their story says, Well, yeah, I guess since I'm so low that I'm not really sleeping that well, and I haven't really been sleeping well for a decade, and I'm dealing with this and I'm dealing with that. And then they sort of come out and realize that all the things that they sort of assumed were they were managing well, now they know they're not. They they know that they're really low and they need to do something about it. And just assuming that you're gonna be fine and assuming that you're gonna wake up and your brain is just gonna work perfectly every day, is a flawed assumption, right? You're taking a risk by living that life.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Well, and one of the things we know about first responders is they want facts, they want the factual information. So it seems this is built on biofeedback, really. The premise of biofeedback is understanding what your reactions are to things, it's not just your thoughts, but what's happening in your body as a result of these thoughts and feelings. And so I think first responders could really understand what you're describing. And once they have factual data, they can use that to make tangible changes. And then us as the therapist working with that responder can say, You're not fine. That's the going word that everyone uses. Um, but when you have this data in front of you that shows evidence of otherwise, it's like when we measure heart rate, you know, and how it fluctuates. Now we have data. So I think this is incredibly wonderful for first responders to be able to understand that there's data for them available and how to use that into making things better for themselves.

SPEAKER_05 14:49

Yeah, it's just like heart rate or heart rate variability, or all are all the different things you can measure about how physically fit you are, it's just that for your brain. Right. And and you're you're exactly right that once you can see it, you know, once you can measure it, you can manage it.

unknown 15:03

Right.

SPEAKER_05 15:04

And and so this is really the whole crux of what we do. We just do that for your brain.

Voiceover 15:07

So a couple of things you talked about, I wanted to dive into a little deeper. Uh one of them is um fatigue factor sleep. It's a it's an epidemic, you could say, with first responders working 24 or 48, even more shifts, you know, doing doubles on the side. Um, how do you how does circle kind of help to assess when that you kind of referred to the fatigue is starting to affect their mental focus or cognitive ability? Like in the real world world terms, how can a first responder use um the tools that circle offers to maybe up level their uh their sleep or or like mitigate some of the effects of uh sleep deprivation?

SPEAKER_05 15:48

So the the first use of circle is to try and get better right now, and because the technology is so sensitive to fatigue, when you are measuring yourself, you know, every week or every two weeks, you'll see how you have gone down or up from that last week. And so the whole point is to give you an indication every single week are you up or are you down from last week? And once they know that, they can keep that top of mind for them to say, okay, I know that I'm low from last week. I need to work this week to be a little bit better. And so the first thing is just a nudge in their awareness to say you need to work on your brain. So just try and prioritize your sleep. Now, the other side of it is that shift work, the way it works with a lot of places when you're going from nights to days or days to nights, is not that's not how our biology works. Our biology can't just switch, switch our circadian rhythm like that in a way that is successful for us. And so it's always the shift workers that are the most tired and fatigued in the measurements that I've seen. And so, as a bigger question, what I'm looking to do, you know, is you know, on the first second, or the first part is heal the first responders immediately. So you they feel better, they're better managing themselves. But on the bigger question, start to get enough data where we can answer policy questions about how should we schedule things. Right. What is okay for people to do? Are we asking too much of people? Like we I work with some surgeons as well, and it's the same thing. You know, what's enough, what's okay for a surgeon's brain? Like, you know, sure they're brilliant and they're driven, you know, and they're really amazing people, but at the same time, you can only ask so much of yourself.

SPEAKER_07 17:21

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

And so what we need to do is we need to first say, you're asking too much, you need to focus on being better. And then on a broader question, how can we be better overall? How can we make first responders more sustainable so that people aren't getting burnt out, people aren't getting PTSD, people aren't, you know, running out of gas and going over the waterfall, as they say.

Voiceover 17:38

Hey, first responders, you face tough calls and hazards every shift, but the fiercest battles, they're happening inside your brain. Meet Circle Brain, your essential mental training partner. Your brain adapts to stress, trauma, and exhausting shifts, but not always in ways that serve you. These invisible changes can show up as fatigue, brain fog, irritability, or memory lapses long before they become obvious. With a circle, you get more than a gadget. Simply put on the headset and play a quick game. In minutes, you'll receive personalized insights into your mental speed, power, and focus. It's built on 60 years of neuroscience research and designed to boost the cognitive resilience you need to crush every challenge. After 21 years of the purchase corner, I didn't realize how compromised my brain actually was until Circle showed me. And thankfully, it's helped me increase my overall brain health. If you're a first responder or support those who are, it's time to take brain health seriously. If you're ready to level up your brain game, contact us now at sales at circlebrain.com. Circle. Because the toughest battles deserve the sharpest minds. The fact is there are many different shifts. Let's just talk about the firefighter world. Um, many different kinds of shifts that are tens of fourteens, twenty-fours, twenty-four, forty-eight, twenty-four, seventy-two. And every time they try to study it, there's really it's difficult to quantify whether one shift is better than another, or or if they started at a night, um, start a shift at night versus during the morning. There's it's really difficult to um just put that into like black and white, you know, information. But would Circle be able to make those um options or the optimal shift, optimal amount of rest? Uh would that be something Circle might be able to help uh clarify?

SPEAKER_05 19:31

That that would be a perfect research application for Circle. So with SUVA, what we built is we built technology for researchers to collect brainwave data at scale and analyze it. And so that's very near and dear to my heart is answering these big, interesting research questions with objective clarity. Because, you know, if you give them surveys or you ask them how you're doing, those survey results do not correlate well with the objective brainwave data that we would measure. We've seen that. And so what we need to do, exactly like you say. David, is we need to find a way to collect this data at scale to say, okay, across an entire department where we know who everybody is, we've gone through all of our research ethics, this is what's really happening with people's brains, for good or for bad. And we could we could show that, you know, with you know, right down to precision of you know, microvolt clarity in terms of what's going on in their brain. Very, great.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

That's really incredible. Can you talk about some of your recent or past collaborations with first responders and maybe share some real life examples for our viewers and listeners?

SPEAKER_05 20:32

Sure. So we we're based here in Canada and we work almost exclusively with police, with the RSMP. And with the RSMP, it it's very interesting to work with them because what you're doing is you're saying, okay, you guys are very busy, you're very stressed, you're trained to be very vigilant about your environment. And so we want to find a way where we can include Circle in your schedule that's not you know disrupting your schedule, but is also helping you to understand how to you know de-stress and lower that vigilance and find ways to be a little bit healthier. And so what we've done is we've built up a wellness program that we've designed for some local detachments here where they have monthly challenges. And so what they're doing is every month they have one thing to focus on. And they're these are obvious things that we all know and do. But the point of this is going back to what David said, is we're providing some objective feedback on is it working for you?

unknown 21:24

Right?

SPEAKER_05 21:24

And we're personalizing that for every single buddy that's doing the study. And so for the people that are doing it, the monthly challenge might be we're gonna focus on sleep, right? That's the biggest one for first responders by far. And so if we can focus on sleep and if we can be a little bit better by sleep, let's prove to ourselves how well that is improving our brain. Let's measure it. And so that's what we're doing. And so every month we do a different study, and it rolls over, every eight months it rolls over, and then we're finding new things to do. But what we want to do is we want to make sure that not only are we seeing that their brain function is improving overall by using Circle, but that they are changing their lifestyle habits by seeing what works and doesn't. And they can realize, you know, maybe I do need to sleep this amount, otherwise I start to keep dropping. Or maybe I do need to eat a slightly different diet and not snack so much and eat out, eat out of vending machines, whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Well, and since we also know with this population that substance abuse is an issue that's underreported by the first responders, um, have you seen any interesting intersection with substance abuse and being able to monitor brain activity?

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Yes, so we have a category in our app where you can track um whatever you want to see if it improves your brain. And that's something that you can do yourself. So if you don't want to talk to a clinician, you don't have to. Um if you're not ready to, you don't have to. But if you want to measure for yourself, if I stop drinking so much, as an example, is that helping my brain? And the interesting thing by the way that we analyze your brain, alcohol shows up immediately and lasts for about two days. Even if you have just one or two drinks, you can see it. It is very apparent. It slows your brain down by about 80 to 100 milliseconds, which affects your overall score.

SPEAKER_07 23:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

Um, and 80 to 100 milliseconds would be about a 20 to 30 percent slowdown of your overall brain speed. So it's it's a significant change. And what we do see is for especially with the police, is that they are wanting to slow themselves down at the end of the day, right? And so taking a depressant helps, right? Having a few drinks after can calm you down. But you want to make sure that that doesn't get to the point where it is becoming a crutch that is affecting other parts of your life. And so what we have seen is that some of the first responders we work with are stopping drinking or limiting it to see how it affects it affects them. And and multiple of them that I work with actually have gone dry completely. Which you know, it's entirely up to you what works for you, but it is very encouraging to me that they are really taking their brain health seriously and thinking about you know, if I can change these habits, is there a better way? Is there something else I can do to de stress myself after work and sort of find that calm place?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Well, it's interesting because in our office, you know, we always hear things like, oh, I have a few beers a week, but it doesn't impact me at all. You know, it has nothing to do with me being tired or not sleeping well or those things. But again, if we could point to the data and they actually have the data and they're looking at it and saying, wow, this is impacting me more than I think. You know, I I think that data makes it very, very compelling to combat some of the things that we're trying to work with on our end.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

Yeah, exactly. And and you know, there's there's sort of cultural acceptance of certain things that that people like to do and and and they talk about. And part of what I'm hoping to do with Circle is to change a little bit about what people talk about so that you know what's accepted and you know, in terms of understanding brain health or talking about it, or being like, yeah, that really knocked me down. Like I went from like an 80 to a 20. I couldn't believe it.

SPEAKER_06 24:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 24:55

And then it took me three weeks to get back up. And so I want people to start having those conversations so that it's not stigmatized, it's not hidden. And so for the people that really do need the help, they can start to hear that this is an accepted thing and will eventually come out into the light and get the help they need.

Voiceover 25:13

So I'd love you to talk a little more about the app. And you mentioned tools. Um, if there are, if you know, if there are ways that someone can improve their cognitive ability, focus, whatever they're looking to improve. What other tools are within the Circle App that can help them do that?

SPEAKER_05 25:32

So, what Circle App does is you play a game for four minutes and it it measures your brain's ability to differentiate between active and inactive objects. And so an inactive object is like the table or desk in front of you, where it's part of your three-dimensional representation of reality, but you are not constantly thinking desk, desk, desk, desk, because it would drive you nuts if you did that with everything in your environment. But you know it's there. Now, when things move in your environment, it's an active object. And so your brain says, What is that new thing that happened? And does it matter for my continued survival in existence? And we measure your brain's different ability to process that new information, and when you process that new information, it causes a spike of electrical activity in your brain, which is called an evoke potential. So, from all that, from that and some other things, we look at different aspects of cognitive function, mostly what you talked about initially, David, which is your overall cognitive function, so the sort of like a measure of overall you know good or bad brain function, um, your ability to focus, your alertness levels, and your ability to consolidate memory. And so, what the app does is it tells you how are you doing right now, and it can break it down into details, how are you changing over time, and you can look over three years, you can look over six months, or you can look over 30 days, and it personalizes your trend. So it shows you this is your normal range, and it gives you indications when you're above your range, when you're below your range, and it shows you exactly how are you training across those time, those time horizons. And then what it does to answer your question is it gets into what we call a study. And so you can click a separate tab in the app when it's called study, and it gives you eight different categories that you can look to improve yourself, right? And as we talked about with substance abuse, um avoiding harmful habits, which is uh that's how we call it, because harmful habits come in different shapes and sizes. Um we have that in there, and you can click it and you can start to change your harmful habit, and then we'll track a sub-part of the app to show you if you're avoiding alcohol or whatever else that you're doing, is it actually helping improve your brain? And so those eight different categories are scientifically backed and evidence-based to be the most impactful for improving your brain. They're not they're not hidden, they're not unknowable, like you know, sleep, diet, and exercise. Like they're they're obvious things, but we what we want to do is we want to make sure that when people are doing the obvious thing, they understand that it is it is important for their brain.

unknown 27:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

And they need to keep doing it. They can't just assume, oh, I I did it for a bit and I'm good. One of the things I see over and over again is I say, I'm happy to come over and measure your brain. Let me know when, okay, well, I'm gonna exercise a bunch and eat really healthy for a month and I'm gonna sleep a bunch because I want to get a really good score so I can feel good about myself, so I never have to measure my brain again. I'm just gonna live the rest of my life assuming my brain's good forever. And that's not always the case. And so the whole point is that measurement over time and understanding with your studies, are you improving based on these different categories or not?

Voiceover 28:18

This episode is made possible by the First Responder Center for Excellence. Discover more at firstrespondercenter.org and connect with us on X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

That's really great. And you mentioned the normal range. I was wondering, is your range built on the window of tolerance? Because on our trauma team, we we teach first responders about their window of tolerance with hyperarousal and hypoarousal and how they have um spikes and dips. Is that some of the scientific work that you've based your ranges on?

SPEAKER_05 28:53

That's a really interesting and nuanced question. So we we specifically don't link the brain measurement to functional deficits or capacities.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:02

Because as soon as you do that, you end up in a diagnosis territory, right? Where we say, okay, if your brain is 10% you're functionally impaired, and now there's a liability issue associated with that measurement.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Understood.

SPEAKER_05 29:14

Right? And so what we do is we say, um, having a better brain is better and more resilient and healthier for you. So let's get you up into the right, let's improve your brain function. So we show what is the normal, what is the normal cadence of your brain function for you, and then when are you two standard deviations lower than that? So when are you really outside of your norm? Right? Did you get a concussion? Did you have a really tough week? Did something happen? And then can we get you back to you know the better version of you?

SPEAKER_07 29:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 29:41

And then we we measure that range on a year-to-year basis. So we what we want to do is we want to take your current range and we want to start to improve that over time. We want we want your overall you know, normal mean, your average to go up.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Okay. No, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for answering that question.

Voiceover 29:57

Of course. So Dr. Baisy, some person, agency, wellness coordinator is interested in using Circle in their uh in their organization. How does that work? Is it available for purchase? Um, how do you how do you work with different um first responder organizations to enable them to use circle in their uh in their you know pursuit for wellness?

SPEAKER_05 30:26

Sure. So each headset can measure multiple people. And so what we do is we'll say, okay, how many people are at your location? And that could be anywhere from you know 30 people to multiple thousands of people. And then we have a conversation about where we want to put measurement stations. So often they're in break rooms or massage rooms or you know, breakout rooms, places where people can have a quiet space for a period of time to measure their brain. And we'll put headsets there, and typically one headset can measure anywhere from about 30 to 50 people. So each headset is a shared resource, and everybody will have their own account. So you'll come in, either you'll use an iPad or you'll have an iPhone, you'll log in, it's your own information, it's completely secure, encrypted, and personalized to you. If you ever want to get rid of it, you can. And then those people will have access to the information through the same headset. And the headset is a shared resource. And so what we do is we we charge the departments or the locations based on how many seats they have, so how many people are using the headset. We don't charge for the headset. If they break the headset through normal use, we'll send you another one the same day. So we really want to make sure that they are using it regularly, and and we we are working with them to really encourage them to build the circle device into their wellness programs. We want them to evolve what they're doing already to better include the brain.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

So we see that some first responders don't trust their agency or department. So I was wondering, is there a way to work around that? Like if someone said, I'd love to do this, but I don't want to be sitting at my department because I don't trust where the data will go. Are there workarounds for that?

SPEAKER_05 32:02

Well, I I can guarantee you that the data is never available to anybody outside of the person, the individual. So one of the things that we've seen over and over again, especially working with police, is they really don't want data going anywhere. I've had a lot of questions about well, what happens if I go out and something happens? What is that data now? Am I culpable? Can that data be shown under discovery? So, what happens in a little more detail is we've built firewalls within our system so we do not know who you are when you're using our system. You get a 26-digit randomly generated number. That is the only thing we know about you. It is just so that we can figure out where the data is and send it back to you so you can see it on your personal device. Nobody else can see the data, nobody else has access to it. We literally have to open the app and show people a phone. That's the only way somebody can see your device. And if you ever get to the point where you are nervous about having your data stored with Circle, there are two buttons within the app. You can delete your account and then poof, it's gone immediately, or you can delete your data and it's gone. It's literally gone as soon as you press that button.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I think just in the days of litigious liability that our first responders are facing, I think that's a really important point that you just made, um, and hopefully would quell any anxiety someone would have about the privacy part of this.

SPEAKER_05 33:17

It's a very interesting question because I have talked with some locations and different types of first responders where they want to have oversight on their workforce to help them.

Voiceover 33:27

Right.

SPEAKER_05 33:28

But there's some there's some liability issues there that we cannot navigate and we're not willing to navigate. So we we can't work with them. Because they say, Well, I want to help. And that's like I understand you want to help, but you have to let them help themselves. And if they want to work with a clinician and better their brain, it has to come from them because it's their data, it's their own personal information. We're not gonna share what's going on with somebody's counselor appointment to their bosses. Same thing with our data. We're not, it's healthcare data. We're gonna, you know, it's it's well, it's close to healthcare data, it's wellness data. Um, we're not gonna share what's going on with their brain to the rest of you. We can't. In aggregate, we can share, right? If we have enough data points, we can say, here's overall how the organization is working, but we're not gonna detail that into positions or locations that could eventually be identifiable for people. It's just are you using the app as people are people generally improving?

Voiceover 34:16

Looking ahead, what's your vision for the future of brain health research and especially what you're doing with Circle and First Responders?

SPEAKER_05 34:25

So, what I'm hoping to do goes back to a little bit on the policy side is I I want to start to be incorporated enough into first responder um wellness programs and locations and research studies so that we can start to really make people more resilient, where we can start to make people really think about okay, what's going on with our brains and how can we do this job in a better way? And and that goes back to helping them right now. You know, they they need help right now, let's be fair. Um, but also answering those bigger, you know, trickier and harder to answer questions by doing actual research studies. So I am really, really passionate about answering both those questions because having worked with first responders quite a bit, and you you hear all the stories, you know, they really need help now. And you know, they're just such great, helpful people, and they're helping everybody else except for themselves. So I want to make sure that they can understand how to help themselves and take better care of themselves so they can be there for their colleagues, their families, their friends, and for the profession in general, and of course for those who they help. Um, but I do also want to think about how can we make make it better for everybody. And ultimately, I see this, and I hope I hope this is something that can really start to drive a conversational shift there.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Well, I think you really understand our population, and we're all doing the same work. We're trying to help them today and and build a better future for them and their families. Um they deserve it. Like you said, they're they're doing everything for everyone else, and they deserve to have an okay future and to not succumb to it for the variety of reasons that we cover on the podcast. Um, I was wondering, just more of a personal question, but are there things that you've changed in your life and how do you impart your own data into making changes for your own wellness?

SPEAKER_05 36:16

So you're you're correct. I do measure my brain regularly, and I have changed a whole bunch of things about my life uh because of it. And as I mentioned before, I I am somewhat neurodivergent already, so I I kind of do things my own way, but um I have stopped drinking, and so I have been dry for oh well over 10 years at this point. Um I stopped drinking caffeinated coffee. So I love coffee, but I drink decaf and um I fast, so I and that's more for to get a better sleep. So I always fast you know about four or five hours before bedtime, and that helps me to get a better sleep because I am fanatical about my sleep. I I track my sleep every single night with a device, and I encourage people to really think about what's helping you to get better sleep. I also track my heart rate to try and get my heart rate as low as possible when I sleep. Um I've changed my diet significantly. Um, I eat a low-carb diet, and I find that that overall helps me to be physically healthier and to be happier and more mentally present. And big one is I really try and manage overwork because as an entrepreneur, as a CEO, I'm busy. Everybody's busy, and it's very easy for me to just keep working. I have ever-ending amounts of work to do. Yeah, and so some days if I'm worn out enough, I go free diving. And so one of the things I've realized is that for me, being connected with nature is one of the things that helps me reset, refills my cup, and sustains me. And so I will get out, I will go out where there's no cell service out into the ocean, and I will go swim with whales. And it is wonderful. Now, not everybody has that, but I'm a huge advocate in terms of getting out in nature and it's taking a moment to reaffirm your sense of self, to be alone with yourself, no devices, and just take a moment to let your thoughts sort of spin themselves down. And typically it takes me about 45 minutes before all the things that are going on in my head start to slow down. And then I'm just out in nature and I'm just you know looking at the beautiful surroundings, and then I start to I I go from walking with my head down to start walking with my head up and seeing what's around me and engaging with you know the beautiful ecosystem we can be in. And so I really advocate for that, for getting outside and and just moving. Um, and I exercise daily.

Voiceover 38:31

Well, that's fantastic. I appreciate you sharing that. Um, so cool to know how you're kind of taking the you know, the results or the feedback you're getting by doing your own um brain scans and then using it in a practical way to um not only de-stress but also to nurture yourself. Um, those are so such important things we talk about all the time, but you really just uh encapsulated it really, really well. So thanks for sharing that. Of course.

SPEAKER_05 39:00

I'd like to say one more thing. Um because as a CEO, you can't always be um you sometimes you just have to work. And so what I found, and the whole point of tracking my brain is that sometimes I do wear myself out. There's just no other option, right? Like I'm at conferences, I'm busy, I'm doing this, I'm traveling around. And I've gotten myself down to like an 18 out of 100, which for me was really low. And it actually shocked me a little bit. So this is the whole point coming back to the technology is you don't always know where you're at. You have to track it to sort of figure out, and then as soon as I saw that I was like, I'm going home, I'm gonna rest, I'm gonna take the rest of the week off, and I did, and it helped. But unless you see that, you just keep working, you just keep wearing yourself out.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

You know, even if people just take the concept of what percent are you at, you know, that's very simple, and we don't we're not showing it on the data in this moment, but I know when you just said that, I asked myself, wow, what percent was I at Monday after this past weekend? Um, you know, and and I think if we can Get people to just start thinking about, even if we use Stacy's term dumping the bucket or the bucket in general, um, what percentage of the bucket is full of water right now and how empty is it? And even that concept alone, I think, could be really a great metric for responders to use data really. But what I hope is that people listen to what we've talked about today and say, you know what? Wow, I want to try that. And I want to see what my data really looks like because I know the data that I tell myself that I look like, but I want to know the truth now. Um, and I think that could be really, really beneficial just long term and on a macro and micro level.

SPEAKER_05 40:40

Yeah, I I sure hope so. Um I I from what I've seen when people use the headset, it's it is an eye-opening moment for everybody, for good or for bad. Um, of all the people I've measured, maybe one to two percent of them are where they think they are. That's right. So we we are all telling ourselves these stories about I'm fine, I'm good. It's just it's not affecting me as much as I think it is. I don't need to sleep that much, or I will sleep later, or I'll do that later. So, you know, I I measured a bunch of people yesterday, and this one lady came in and she had almost a hundred percentile score. Like she was basically a hundred out of a hundred, which I never see. And so I was so impressed. I said, What are you doing? And then she started listing off, these are all the things that I do, and she's doing all the things that are in the app already, because she knows she she she doesn't take her brain health for granted. So I was very impressed that she's you know, she's probably one out of thousands at this point that we've measured that was actually that high. Amazing.

unknown 41:39

Wow.

Voiceover 41:39

So as we wrap up, um, where can people find you, Circle Brain, and any other projects or events you want to share about?

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. Uh you can find my company at circlebrain.com. There's no E in the spelling of circle. And if you want to reach out to me and our team, you can find us at sales at circlebrain.com and we would love to talk with you. Um, you can find us through our website as well. There's a little connection box there. And the next thing that we're doing is we're starting to expand into uh understanding healthcare and operating rooms and also aging. And so we're working to help people avoid dementia. And so one of the things with first responders that I did not talk about is that the things that they're going through now put them at further risk for getting dementia later on. And so we want to help on all the ends of the spectrum of brain health, both for solving the acute needs now, but also helping to cause you know limit that cognitive decline later on, because we don't want you to retire and then wear yourself out. Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Well, thank you for thank you for caring about our population. And I can tell that you have a lot of uh brain electricity in this area to make things better. I know there'll be more things coming down the pike, and on behalf of all of our responders, thank you for caring about them and doing this work for them behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_05 42:56

Well, well, thank you for spreading the word. It helps greatly.

Voiceover 42:58

I really appreciate it. Dr. Nolan Vise, um a pleasure to speak with you as always, and uh keep keep up this amazing work you're doing and especially appreciate your focus on first responders and their their brain health. So uh keep up the good fight. Thank you. We'll certainly do that. Remember to like and subscribe, YouTube Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV. We're on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and our website is respondertv.com. You can find past episodes and guest information and information about the launch of our new book, Clinterson's Guide to First Responder Mental Wellness. Till the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself, take care of the